Driving tips - dog box owners

[bazeng]

Hello there! I know this board had a few guys out there with dog boxes. I'm at the start of a huge learning curve as my vr4 now utilises one.

Any tips? I've read heaps online and watched a bunch of videos on youtube already. I've put them to practice and so far so good.

Basically I've gathered :
- double clutch going up gear with normal driving (i haven't attempted a normal shift yet, will this be ok?)
- flat shift at high revs works (pre load shifter, foot off gas, shifter goes into next gear and foot back on gas. Now should this be violent on engagement or should it be smooth?)
- down shift rev matching + double clutching. (i can get it to down shift nicely only if prefecty matched. Is double clutching necessary?)

So basically I would like to know of the above methods can be improved and if there are any other methods available?

what I've tried and didn't work so well:
- Flat shift down gear. It worked but it unsettled the cars motion.
- down shift without rev matching. Lots of grinding of dogs.
- shifting up slowly, lots of crunching.
- flat shift at low rpm/ high load, very big thud but goes into gear.

It is a whole new driving experience. Makes manual synchro driving feel like auto.

Feed back appreciated!

 

[OLDIE]

Hello there! I know this board had a few guys out there with dog boxes. I'm at the start of a huge learning curve as my vr4 now utilises one.

Any tips? I've read heaps online and watched a bunch of videos on youtube already. I've put them to practice and so far so good.

Basically I've gathered :
- double clutch going up gear with normal driving (i haven't attempted a normal shift yet, will this be ok?)
- flat shift at high revs works (pre load shifter, foot off gas, shifter goes into next gear and foot back on gas. Now should this be violent on engagement or should it be smooth?)
- down shift rev matching + double clutching. (i can get it to down shift nicely only if prefecty matched. Is double clutching necessary?)

So basically I would like to know of the above methods can be improved and if there are any other methods available?

what I've tried and didn't work so well:
- Flat shift down gear. It worked but it unsettled the cars motion.
- down shift without rev matching. Lots of grinding of dogs.
- shifting up slowly, lots of crunching.
- flat shift at low rpm/ high load, very big thud but goes into gear.

It is a whole new driving experience. Makes manual synchro driving feel like auto.

Feed back appreciated!

Baz does the supplier/maker have any instructions????

 

[bazeng]

Yes, they simply state double clutch up on slow shifts, flatt shift up on full revshifts by fully disengaging the gas and then engage. Down shift via rev matching.

I haven't called them recently to question the feel. If only somebody around here had a dog box....

 

[DOUGMO]

with the dog boxes I have driven you really have to match revs perfectly on the down shifts

lift the gas off a bit and smash it through on the up shifts.

dont pussy shift it baz or you'll damage the dogs and one that happens it will be a real bitch to shift at all.

we pulled apart a ppg one and the dogs were smashed to bits and it jammed and bent the shift forks.

go and have a chat ot BJP. right up his alley man

 

[Velocity Racing]

well where to start.. what brand is it? the feel of the PPG one is alot nicer than some of the other brands going, due the the number and design of the dog teeth..

-yeah for driving on the street and so as not to get a clunk you need to double clutch on the upshifts.. it will match the speeds of the shaft before the dog engages so its nice and smooth..
- Make sure you always make quick, firm and accurate shifts, its not like a syncro where it will sort of pop in when its in the right spot, if you dont the dogs clatter and as George said its not good..
- Yes you can shift with no clutch when you are at higher revs and really on it.. however i dont think you are really going to lose any time using the clutch, i away use the clutch from 1st to 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 5th.. mainly as when you are going across the gate, if you miss and say put it in 1st with no clutch, it will engage the gear and buzz the motor big time.. it shouldnt be violent when you are doing it flat out say 3rd to 4th at 100kph +, its is violent when you are doing it on the street at 60kph..
- two things for the down shift.. 1).. if you are babying it around, and dont want a clunk.. then double clutch and rev match, (ie clutch in> shift to neutral > clutch out> blip throttle to match the lower gear>clutch in>shift etc).. however if you are going for it, then you need to rev-match in the same way you normally would to prevent compression lockups.. thing is if you dont double clutch, and only rev match (ie heel-toe) when you select the gear (which is the same time you push the clutch in, the dogs engage, so the rev match has no effect on the shaft speed..

So basically I would like to know of the above methods can be improved and if there are any other methods available?

I think the basic rule of thumb is DONT baby it, strong, quick and accurate gear selection, doube clutch and rev-match where you can and use the clutch (i do )

what I've tried and didn't work so well:
- Flat shift down gear. It worked but it unsettled the cars motion.
- down shift without rev matching. Lots of grinding of dogs.
- shifting up slowly, lots of crunching.
- flat shift at low rpm/ high load, very big thud but goes into gear.

-yeh flat shift down is bad for hubs, shafts etc, if you do you MUST rev-match perfectly.. so you would left foot brake and use the right foot to match revs and jump on the throttle nice and quick.. ive tried this tecnique.. but didnt like it.. now i ALWAYS use the clutch for going down.. but still left foot brake just before the apex.. means you need to dance the pedals a little.. but it works well..

- atleast heal toe to rev match with a single clutch.. you should do that anyway..

- BIG no no!

- Yeah not good i tried it once too.. but its not good.. not exactly sure why however..


I guess its a bit about what you want to use the car for too.. if its for the street then baby it, unless your going for a hills run, and if your having a run off the lights, then use the clutch as the 10th of a sec isnt going to matter.. If its a drag car, then you probbaly want to clutchless shift as ever 10th counts, but be very carefull accross the gate.. if its on a track or tarmac rally then rev match so as not to unsettle the car.. but that is a given anyway.. for gravel rally.. just bang it in gear.. but with the clutch..

thats all off the top of my head.. (its about practice you will get the hang of it..)

 

[bazeng]

Thanks heaps for that info.

It helps to know what experienced guys are doing.

I didn't know if what I was doing was right / wrong.

I think I'll try and utilise the clutch going across the gate with an ignition cut switch so I can also keep the throttle wide open.

I guess it is a matter or practice / practice / practice.

Also how easy is it to damage these boxes?

I believe it is a PAR box. The teeth are much larger than the PPG stuff but that also makes it a bit harsher to drive.

 

[Velocity Racing]

They are very strong, and will put up with a lot of punishment, if used correctly, yeah bigger the dog teeth the harder it is, which makes sense as the window where the dog can engage is much smaller,

Using a no-lift to shift is a good idea, you only need to cut for just long enough for the gear to unlock so you can actually de-select the gear..

yeah practice and you will get it

 

[bazeng]

Have you got any footage of yourself driving it? Would love to see it done in a mitsu. Next on my list is to play with the pedal heights for heel and toeing!

 

[Velocity Racing]

not really sorry.. all the incar (youtube.com/velocityracingmedia) we've got is with the camera focused on the front window, so you cant see my left leg and the shifter... I can try and take a video if you want, i can just point the angle of the camera down, or maybe Sarah can just video on her phone..

yeah ive found the VR4 pedal spacing isnt great when compared with an Evo (its alot better than some cars).. but im sure with a bit of modding you can fix that.. it also depends on how tall you are.. Im 6ft so the seat is mounted back a fair way and then have a deep dish wheel and one of the longer hubs to bring the wheel back into the right spot..

 

[JiMi]

sounds like trying to drive a road ranger for the first time, as stated, practice makes perfect

 

[bazeng]

Ok, it takes a bit of getting used to but it isn't too bad.

You just have to realise that the gearbox WILL make noise (bangs and thuds).

Thanks for all the tips!!

 

[trq-str]

Watch this Baz,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_1jO64tuQA&p=5F54EB62D694EE65&playnext=1&index=6

 

[JC evo1]

thats a good vid, allthough I allways used to double clutch upshifts when just driving normally, matches speeds exactly and no grinding of the dogs.