E85..... Good ? Bad ? Myth ?

[Dasithkg]

hi guys....


i've been doing some reading on a few forums and on here and through Google... about E85

the General ideas i got are:

Good on power/ high boost/ high compression/ less knock etc

Bad on fuel economy

massively corrosive.... may induce rust on fuel lines/engine etc...



Mods Required to run E85

need 2 maps and specific tunes for regular fuel and E85 to switch between them

need higher fuel pressure/ afpr

Need a bigger fuel pump / or two

Need Bigger Injectors

have to change fuel filter regularly during first few weeks or so after conversion..


do i need any other mods? engine mods? a different catalytic converter?


so am i on right track ?? im not going to convert anytime soon or anything.... but still would like to learn how to , pros, cons. etc



cheers
Dasith

 

[ONPSI]

Your on the right track mate..
You would only need 2 maps if you wanted to run 98 as well but that would depend on what your using your car for pending distance driven and availability of E85.
I've heard a lot about pump E85 not actually being up to spec and more of a close enough is good enough situation. So if your car is tuned for E85 to make sure your getting exactly "E85" you would have to be buying it in a drum rather then pump.
Yes E85 burns faster then 98 so yes you will use more

 

[UDLOOZ]

Wonder fuel.... Ive run it for the last six months and havent had an issue!
The car runs better more responsive seems to run cooler etc etc.

The worst thing about switching the fuels is draining all the normal pump fuel out properly and i mean getting as much out as possible to be safe. But for how cheap it is and how often i drive the car i just leave the E85 in it.
I use the same shit as the super cars, the sucrogen E85 which is different to the stuff being sold out of the pump. Last 44g drum i got was 520 bucks and to some that might seem dear but for when i was making the same power on MS109 it was costing me 225 bucks for 20litres.. So do the math with that.

My tuner doesnt use crazy boost levels like some my shitta makes 525hp on 26psi but as far as im aware i run alot of advance timing right through the map. I can definatly feel it as it feels really strong off boost as opposed to the pump fuel tune..

I do reccommend using a strong fuel system although it all depends on the power your making, every car that cops a thrashing should have a surge tank setup with there in tank pumping into that and an external from the surge tank forward at a bare minumum. Its a safe option. It all comes down to what you want from the car, it does cost a bit to set up but is alot cheaper than other race fuels on the market thats the main reason i ended up with it.

 

[Dasithkg]

thnxx ONPSI & UDLOOZ...

so the bottom line is, E85 is pretty much for Weekend warriors..... + high HP cars......

think i should wait a bit more untill the right quality stuff is available at the pump and the pumps become more availabe...... most probably within next year i'll convert . but from what i've read so far, it should be mind blowing

thanx again guys for the info..

Dasith

 

[TMAK]

I'm currently using E85 on my weekender with just a bigger pump and injectors and no probs so far. Noticed a ~30kw (vdr reading) gain just by changing fuel and remapping.

You mentioned "weekend warriors" my friend with an Evo 9 has been using E85 since June 09 with just a full exhaust making 250+ kws. His car is on a fleet plan from his work and he drives it everyday. I asked him if he has changed his fuel filter and he says he doesn't think so. Also according to his paper work it has saved him slightly more money on petrol.

 

[brisvr4]

thnxx ONPSI & UDLOOZ...

so the bottom line is, E85 is pretty much for Weekend warriors..... + high HP cars......

think i should wait a bit more untill the right quality stuff is available at the pump and the pumps become more availabe...... most probably within next year i'll convert . but from what i've read so far, it should be mind blowing

thanx again guys for the info..

Dasith

You are running a non-turbo E33A aren't you? If so I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to change over unless you plan on upping your compression to take advantage of it. Being able to up the timing across the board is one good advantage but it does seem to respond much better to boosted cars.

As far as needing to change fuel filters is concerned, you might need to change them if you have a dirty tank and lines as the E85 will dislodge any crap that is in there.
I swapped filters twice when I started using it just to be safe.

 

[Dasithkg]

Thanx TMAK and BrisVR4,

i read about the need to change fuel filter in a few forum posts... cos apparently E85 pics up the debris in the tank and then clogs up the filter.... i guess its true becoz Galants are more than 20 years old... there's a good chance there might be some dirt in the tank.

and Yes BrisVR4 i do have a NT E33A, but im planning to do a high compression engine build up next year, so just researching my options.
just finished a course in automotive so im itching to do a project...

 

[blackvr]

I run my daily ( high output) VR4 on E85 Caltex pump "E-Flex", and have done so for some months.... I tune customer cars , and our state gravel rally championship winning VR4 on the E85 pump fuel as well. I personally only have positive comments ! I know the blend varies from cooler to warmer months, but it doesnt alter AFR unde power as much as you think...

My daily runner, contrary to beliefs, uses only 10 % more E85 in practice. This is mainly due to the fact that AFR are able to be setup a bit leaner than PULP98 , and the SIGNIFICANT torque gains means I am driving around in a taller gear, and using less throttle % than 98 at any given speed. ie less air consumed by the engine means less fuel goes along with it ... I do use bigger injectors and the obligatory Walbro255 intank pump as well.

All my customer cars, and my own race cars have NOT experienced knock, even running 23+ psi boost ... so much for inconsistent pump E85 ! I know this is ok during competition and road use , due to ECMLink and Tephra mods roms being able to flash up the CEL when more than the programmed knock level is exceeded ( 5 counts ?). Using this CEL knock function has high lighted how much phantom knock occurs in VR4s at very small throttle percentages though !

On all my cars , once I've changed the filters twice in short succession, havent had continuing filter issues...

I have also been able to have switching E85/Pulp maps by using Tephra/ECMLink tuning techniques.

And most importantly, it ihas been CHEAPER by a significant margin to use E85 in my daily runner... especially when Caltex have priced E-Flex 34c/litre cheaper than PULP !!!

Dont be scared to use it... its a wonder fuel, and by far the cheapest powergain you will ever get.

Mike

 

[Dasithkg]

I do use bigger injectors and the obligatory Walbro255 intank pump as well.

Thanx Mike,

would evo3 510cc's be enough for a non turbo 4G63 to run E85??

 

[milkandoj]

Dam it i want to to be widely available in WA!
Anyone know if there are plans to sell it over here?

With the phantom knock at part throttle in vr4's i would get knock retard at low loads rolling on throttle up hills, so i went through and played with these areas of the map, and it rarely happens now. My cruise section of the map i wrote up using VR4 RS map values, so possibly too aggressive for the 98 fuel im using :angry: so waiting for E85!
That was just on my car, a lot of them need the knock sensor replaced anyway, but if removing timing, or touching up the afr's gets rid of it its not phantom knock. It does register knock when i hear a loud clutch rattle so that's "phantom".

 

[blackvr]

Yeah... mine is definitely phantom knock of about 12 counts. I only happens at 3000 rpm , 2nd gear , on E85, 10% throtttle . I cannot replicate it in any other gear on the same load condition ! Must be something rattling around ! Luckily, in ECMLink I can get the ECU to ignore it !

Dasithkg... 510's should be plenty for E85 and a NA setup. I use siemens 910cc injectors, and I see about 65% duty cycle @ approx 20 psi and 210 kw@ wheels. Our EVO8 making 285 kw@ wheels on E85 and the same injectors is a bit borderline at around 95% duty cycle....

 

[JayRome]

E85, quad throttles and a 1.6lt head on the 2lt should do the trick.......

 

[Dasithkg]

thanx for he input Mike......... great help n advice .

E85, quad throttles and a 1.6lt head on the 2lt should do the trick.......

why put a 1.6lt head on a 2lt jay?

 

[mattrat]

smaller compression dome, i think its like 43cc instead of 47 = more compression

 

[brisvr4]

Just keep an eye on the injectors for the dreaded black goop that can build up on them!
It's something that can crash out of suspension on occasion. I've got a little on my injectors from time to time, easy to clean off though, straight fuel dissolves it.

 

[Dasithkg]

Just keep an eye on the injectors for the dreaded black goop that can build up on them!
It's something that can crash out of suspension on occasion. I've got a little on my injectors from time to time, easy to clean off though, straight fuel dissolves it.

a bottle of injector cleaner from time to time would do the trick i guess??

 

[milkandoj]

Could you just save a pump fuel tune and run a quarter of a tank of 98 through it from time to time to clean the gunk out inside them as well as on the tip.

 

[brisvr4]

There is a specific injector cleaner that will work but we don't have it over here yet

And I'm too lazy to change tunes... easier to just pull the injectors and clean them lol

 

[iluszn]

From everything I have heard from friends who have run E85 adn those who have posted about the experience.

- Had to change fuel filter a couple of times in an older car as it cleans out the lines/tank
- Car can be made to run leaner without ping
- Upto 30% less fuel economy depending on your setup/driving
- Have installed much larger injectors than they would have on PULP (If they considered 700cc injectors, they went 900cc or larger)
- It is 85% ethanol in summer, and will be 75% ethanol in the winter.


People had said that it will corrode your lines, dry out pipes, damage your engines etc. But have read articles of people in the USA running E85 in a new car for thousands of miles, they stripped the motor and fuel system down and , nothing. Still all working as it should, no additional engine wear nothing.

The only reason I can see people NOT putting E85 into a car, is just purely availability. Its not available at most servo's yet and you cant just go run PULP then drop E85 in when you feel like it.

Also remember the E85 that we, the consumer will get a tthe pump will not be the same as the V8 super cars run. There will be no guarantee of octane rating on the pump fuel where as the V8 super car is specific for them and is stable.

 

[blackvr]

iluszn, Firstly, I wouldnt be tooo.. concerned about octane rating. A Fresh E85 brew is nominally around 108RON. So if it drops back to 106, or even 104 RON... that is still way better than PULP. I use up occaisonally customers left over stale racefuel ( ex pump) E85 in my road car. No problems, no knock registered on the on the programmed flashing CEL in the instrument panel... And I mean stale as in 4 months old !! My road car tends to be a guinea pig test mule for these things !

Secondly, I dont know why people are talking about 30% worse fuel economy. In my experience over the last 3 years, my road car only uses 10-15% more E85 fuel over petrol ( depending on how vigorously it is driven). The tarmac and gravel rally cars I run use on average 15% more fuel. This is still assuming that theoretically for the same mixture strength you need 25% more by volume....

I "think" a lot of the urban myths re E85 use are recycled waa waa from people not actually using the stuff ?? I do acknowledge though that ethanol is not so good on genuine rubber components eg fuel tank / fuel pump lids and o -rings... But it is easy to get around those issues ! The benefits ( ie extra torque) well out weigh the negatives, especially if you have a turbo motor, or a high comp N/A motor.