Setting car up...Lift off oversteer

[JAP63]

Your ride height figures suggest to me that perhaps your ride height is set a little too low for optimum handling from the Evo 3. Tyres filling guards up looks pretty cool, but lowering a car too much also has the effect of messing up the roll centres on each end of the car

It may be a little low, but bear in mind the following info taken from the whiteline site, these are the heights for their springs.

Springs ​

Front Low -340

Front Superlow -325
Rear Low- 305 ​

Rear Superlow -295

My figures are

Front -330
Rear -300/305

Looking at that, it appears my ride height is around the level that witeline set theirt cars at..so i dont see my car being too far off the mark or bumpsteering..my control arms are level.

 

[DOUGMO]

my thoughts are; you cant have the best of both worlds in this case its looks and handling. your car does look mad mate but you will always compromise the handling with such big rims and low tyres.

what brand are your tyres by the way?

alot of cars will lift off over steer if the inputs are not very smooth(eg; from full throttle to zero throttle) which will unsettle the car and as others have said will transfer the weight forward and make the rear let go, and somethimes it will let go hard.

what craig_cd9a is saying is quite true, what may be required more is time in the car to get used to it.

if you are coming through a corner on the road too hard and have to lift off to avoid something then it will unsettle the car because you are suprised and may go from full to zero. i did learn this the hard way in an old lj gtr torana that would nearly 360 if you came of the gas mid corner,even half off.

try to lift off gradually to control the turn in of the car if required and see how that goes. you then may be able to control the turn in more with the throttle.

imo the altrenative of wild understeer is less fun but i guess its more of a preference and safety thing.

 

[DOUGMO]

It may be a little low, but bear in mind the following info taken from the whiteline site, these are the heights for their springs.

Springs ​

​

​

Front Low -340
Front Superlow -325
Rear Low- 305 ​

Rear Superlow -295

My figures are

Front -330
Rear -300/305

Looking at that, it appears my ride height is around the level that witeline set theirt cars at..so i dont see my car being too far off the mark or bumpsteering..my control arms are level.

20mm is a fair bit in this case, you are limiting your suspension travel. also arent they just the spring heights of their springs and not the ideal settings?

 

[JAP63]

my thoughts are; you cant have the best of both worlds in this case its looks and handling. your car does look mad mate but you will always compromise the handling with such big rims and low tyres.

what brand are your tyres by the way?

what craig_cd9a is saying is quite true, what may be required more is time in the car to get used to it.
.

See post above about ride height etc...

My tyres are Kumho Ectsta, i understand the rims probably dont help, but bear in mind.....this occured when the car had 15's and standard height...

Hence me on the track of finding out what and why this particular car wants to do this. It may just be a thing i need to get used to, though id rather eliminate it, as it feels and is potentially unsafe, as someone as already mentioned their car fishtailing up a straight.

Have you got your car on the track at all yet Dougmo? do you experience it?

 

[JAP63]

20mm is a fair bit in this case, you are limiting your suspension travel. also arent they just the spring heights of their springs and not the ideal settings?

Which part of my car is 20mm lower?
The front is around the same, and so is the rear. As far as I know, they wouldn't run these springs if they were rubbish and were gonna cause issues from being too low...This is whiteline, not Jumboz ..I cant see why they would....as mentioned, my control arms are pretty good, every one ive spoke to saiys level is good, that right?

And also, my shocks are lower platform adjustable , so im not actually running out of travel so to speak...though i do understand that at low heights, its not the just the travel effected, but also geometry.

 

[DOUGMO]

i havent had mine actual car out jamie but have experienced this in many other cars that i have owned and driven,road and track. my mistake on the heights, and i was refering to the front.but travel is travel,as an example though dms recomend 350mm front and 340mm rear for tarmac cars.

also if those extas are like the ones i had on the back of the skyline then they wont help, but saying that if they are front and back it should be balanced enough.

i believe you will be right with more time behind the wheel as craig said and learing how the car reacts with inputs. you could disconnet the sway bar which will help the over steer but not your handling as such.

i think you will find that one of these cars that actually turns in will do this. its a side effect of turn in, its just how you control it imo.

 

[JAP63]

i havent had mine actual car out jamie but have experienced this in many other cars that i have owned and driven,road and track. my mistake on the heights, and i was refering to the front.but travel is travel,as an example though dms recomend 350mm front and 340mm rear for tarmac cars.

also if those extas are like the ones i had on the back of the skyline then they wont help, but saying that if they are front and back it should be balanced enough.

i believe you will be right with more time behind the wheel as craig said and learing how the car reacts with inputs. you could disconnet the sway bar which will help the over steer but not your handling as such.

i think you will find that one of these cars that actually turns in will do this. its a side effect of turn in, its just how you control it imo.

Yeah, i spoke with DMS not too long ago, and he was talking 65mm of stroke in their shock, i have no doubt that the car would likely be a little better off with 10 or 15mm raising, but then again, i dont think its sacked that low at the moment that the geometry is up the shit.

Im gonna try and disconnect the rear swaybar (when i get time) and see how it feels, i also dont expect any real great handling returns from a 19 inch rim, it will be intersting when i get say 16's or 17's.

On that note, what would you recommend the ideal tyre and rim for me once i look at track stuff?
17x7 wit 215/40? or smaller than that, ie 16's?

 

[DOUGMO]

i reckon 16s or 15s. if i had the right rims i would still be running 15s but my front brakes wouldnt fit in my 15" works so i had to go to 16s.
i reckon the right sizes are a 205/55r15 or a 215/50r16 but thats just me.

i also just noticed that the whiteline test car was only lowered 10mm front and rear over standard.

also how much neg camber do you have on the rear?

 

[JAP63]

i reckon 16s or 15s. if i had the right rims i would still be running 15s but my front brakes wouldnt fit in my 15" works so i had to go to 16s.
i reckon the right sizes are a 205/55r15 or a 215/50r16 but thats just me.

i also just noticed that the whiteline test car was only lowered 10mm front and rear over standard.

also how much neg camber do you have on the rear?

I didnt see that? where did you see that about the test car?

I think on the rear its at around 1 degree...i want a little more neg, would this help?

 

[DOUGMO]

it says in the article that the test car is only lowered 10mm.

too much rear neg will make you loose rear grip. the test car was set at .75 rear neg. whiteline say more would improve rear grip but i tend to disagree on this one. a little sould be fine but not too much.

 

[www.18u]

It is true that the car was only lowered by 10mm. The reasoning was that the previous owner lived on a dirt road, and did still require some ground clearance. I have noticed that whiteline do not like to lower there cars much compared to standard. My old car now runs Racing Logic coilovers, and has significantly reduced this affect even with a lower ride height than before. I am not 100% sure why it has improved, but i would guess that the decrease in weight shift, and body roll will be contributing factors.

I will get the old wheel alignment settings for you and post them up so you can compare if you like?

 

[JAP63]

I will get the old wheel alignment settings for you and post them up so you can compare if you like?

Thatd be great thanks.

 

[Willard]

My 2 Cents!
You're going to get lift off oversteer to a degree no matter what you do. Just be easy on the controls to minimise it....

My thoughts are that a little lift off oversteer is the probably the easiest way of getting a car, like an Evo, that generally wants to understeer at corner entry to actually turn in sharply.

For example, on the track in my car, I try to come in a little too quick for the corner, turn in and dab the brakes. This will hopefully slow the car and more importantly move the weight to the front tyres and off the rears and make the car oversteer, or turn into the corner. Then hit the throttle to have all the power down and the weight to then transfer to the rear and away from the outside front tyre. Ideally you don't want all the weight on the outside front and therefore scrubbing/understeering around the corner.

Softening the rear and hardening the front will make it less prone to oversteer...

Again, my 2 cents only...

 

[EVO-00X]

Just make sure that you time it right... it takes a bit of practice between understeering and going nowhere to coming on too early and oversteering. Hitting the apex at the right speed, angle and balance ready to power out of the corner takes a lot of practice.. especially at high speeds. It's way too easy to stay on the brakes for too long around a corner and chew up the front outside wheel lol...

 

[thirteen]

In like a lamb, out like a lion.

 

[EVO-00X]

Just got my car back from getting aligned on a Beissbarth wheel alignment system. Remember my car is a coupe converted to AWD and has NEVER been aligned since swapping parts over from the AWD conversion, so the alignments were bound to be a bit out of whack lol. Now that I'm nearing the end of getting it engineered I need to make sure it actually drives well on the road obviously so had the alignment done this morning .

Since Im using GSR front lower control arms I went the Whiteline way with Fulcrum Formulae adjustable coil overs/camber ; antilift/castor kit; h/duty rear swaybar; whiteline swaybar links, and front and rear strut bars.

The final measurements in the wheel alignment today were within Whiteline specified 'Touring' specs (Sport was just way too much for my liking at this stage). I'm not too sure about the -1.2mm rear toe at this stage but I'll see how it goes and if its a bit too tail happy I'll drop it back.

What do you guys think? The top half of the attachment shows front and rear initial and final measurements, the bottom half of the page shows Whitelines optimum starting settings for a GSR Lancer using their kit.

 

[rob323]

All seems fairly standard. Did they offer an explanation as to why the castor is different from one side to the other?

With 1.5 degrees of camber on the back, I would be looking to keep the toe to as close as 0 as possible to minimise tyre wear.

For anyone getting a wheel alignment soon, tell me what the rear toe changes to when someone sits on the boot. Whether it toes in or out?

 

[EVO-00X]

I didnt get an explanation for it. The Whiteline caster/anti-lift kit bushes for GSR's are preset for extra caster (not adjustable). The hole is in a different spot to the stock ones so you simply slide them onto the pin and the caster is preset as per the way Whiteline made them to suit their specs. It'll offer better handling than stock, but nothing like a fully adjustable system. See pics.

Yeah Rob, the rear toe is something I will keep an eye on as the guy who did the alignment said exactly the same thing. It'll improve handling but to the detriment of tyre wear. I'll see how much use I get out of the rears and maybe make adjustments next set of tyres

Stock GSR caster bushes vs Whiteline caster/anti-lift kit bushes below.

 

[JAP63]

For anyone getting a wheel alignment soon, tell me what the rear toe changes to when someone sits on the boot. Whether it toes in or out?

Yeah I'm intersted in that too.
But with more compession, and hence more camber, wouldnt you get more toe in?

 

[rob323]

Dunno, that's why I asked if someone could check it. It would replicate what you rear wheels do we the car squats on take off, and also what happens when you hit the brake and the weight shifts to the front.