Shep trans - anybody ever get a box sent there?

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The Godfather said:
bazeng: just wondering how much power you're putting out and what has it run 1/4 mile?

i dont think the power is killing it.. i think the torque it is making is what is killing it.. its a stroker yer?....

afaik baz hasnt run this setup ever?.. bak in say 2005 i think he had the old stockie motor with a td0625g steve murch turbo and it ran mid 13s?

Jon
 
The aim was to give it a run on FRIDAY (last Friday) but it broke on THU.

It's a 2.4L long rod motor. Looking at the dyno graph, it makes full boost at around 3500rpm and that is when it broke....
 
to put it honestly i am not suprised.. u have pumped it with afew 300kw + runs not to mention u drove it FWD for abit on ur old motor.. not many stock boxes will handle that much "power/abuse".. but yer sounds like torque just made it go bang bang!

Jon
 
When you open that broken box up Barry, I would be curious to know what failed, whether you stripped the teeth off 4th gear or whether it was something else.
 
^^^ I know how it feels mate :( When I try to explain some things down to detail to make it easier to understand for people that sh!t happens and I curse aloud in 3 different languages! I have to stand up and walk around the room or I'll punch the monitor :w00t:... When the page refreshes I go "nooooooooooooooooo......' :fuuuuu:
A lot of time goes into in-depth tech discussions that sometimes I write it in a WORD document first, then copy and paste it over :) Just that I dont do it ALL the time :rolleyes:
Even PM's (3000) and Group Social discussion (1000) character length allowances are too short :huh: [hey Bazza andTimmy?!?] lol :w00t:
 
Lol Rob!
The typing machine!

I'm keen to see what is broken inside also.
We did drive the car off the dyno and onto the hoist (about 20 metres or so) afterwards. So it did still drive. At the same time, the tail shaft uni joint failed (the one I didn't change!!! middle one).. It shows, even though it looks and feels good, change the bastard because it will break!

The gearbox has served me well!
It was a used box so who knows how it was treated prior!. At least the AMG has a decent used box with known km's. It was off a dead stock MONTE CARLO with very low km's so hopefully that'll hold up ok.

I'll grab some dyno graphs of the torque curve today and post them up.
I haven't even seen them myself
 
bazeng said:
Lol Rob!
The typing machine!

I'm keen to see what is broken inside also.
We did drive the car off the dyno and onto the hoist (about 20 metres or so) afterwards. So it did still drive. At the same time, the tail shaft uni joint failed (the one I didn't change!!! middle one).. It shows, even though it looks and feels good, change the bastard because it will break!

The gearbox has served me well!
It was a used box so who knows how it was treated prior!. At least the AMG has a decent used box with known km's. It was off a dead stock MONTE CARLO with very low km's so hopefully that'll hold up ok.

I'll grab some dyno graphs of the torque curve today and post them up.
I haven't even seen them myself


OOOOHhhhh, monte carlo..... Ultra rare.... What is the case code on that transmission? I thought it came with a viscous front differential, 2-spider center diff, Evo 1 1st gear ratio, Evo 1 2nd gear ratio, and then single synchro 3rd/4th gears with the Evo 1/2/3 ratios, and I cannot remember the 5th gear ratio or the ring/pinion gear ratios.... I have notes somewhere on this transmission, as my friend has one that we built up for his 1G AWD Eagle Talon.




As for the aftermarket gearsets that can take the power AND not blow up instantly, I would put PPG at the top of the list, then Albins, then PAR, etc.

At least with Albins, you can get an Evo 1/2/3 helical dogbox that has a welded center diff, and uses your front differential, then modifications to the 5th gear cover insides (you remove the reverse cone, wave spring, and oil guides on the cover), then modifications to the reverse gear selector bracket (or you can use an Evo 1 reverse gear selector bracket). It uses Albins shift rails/rail ends, and would go best with a set of Evo 1 solid steel shift forks for 1/2, 3/4 and 5R.

I would say that the Albins box would be the most streetable just for the fact that it is a helical gearset, resulting in less noise, but still has all the issues of a dogbox transmission for slow shifting. You need to shift fast, and with authority to use a dogbox the way it was designed; otherwise, it will require refreshing very regularly.

PPG has the best gear design on the market for the Evo 1-9 and it by far the strongest shape/design/material composition/surface finish when compared to its competitors.

As for the strength of the Albins gearset, well, I have one in front of me currently -- it has a shredded 2nd gear on the Input shaft, 2nd gear on the Intermediate shaft, and a shredded 3rd gear on the input shaft. It is the old design Evo 1/2/3 dogbox that they produce, so maybe the product quality has gone up. Either way, it looks just as weak as the Mitsubishi design because it still incorporates the same size/ thickness gears/shafts/etc. The gear tooth face thickness is slightly thicker on the Albins gearset when compared to the Mitsubishi, but I don't think that the surface strength is high enough on the Albins gearset. I would love to see a Rockwell hardness rating on it, or if they do any sort of surface treatment on it.




Baz, what kind of power levels are we talking about on your setup? 2.4L long rod with what turbo? Torque levels?

What preloads were you running on the transmission input shaft, intermediate shaft and center differential?

Were you doing your dyno runs in 3rd or 4th?
 
Hi Tim!

The GALANT VR4 is running what I believe is a VR4 RS box. It has the 3.9 ratio's, open front and 2 spider centre. I had it freshened up by a rally guy. I'm not sure what specs it was built at. All parts were used oem.

The GALANT AMG is running the monte carlo box. It too is pretty much the same. I have pics of the guys of it if you want them! Lots of pics! We put in a KAAZ 1.5way lsd and a Viscous Locker into it (FWD).

The CODE for the
VR4 box is:
Cant see because of scatter shield
on the sticker below BNU0739-WQNK

and

the AMG box is:
W5M332WQNK
NU0121

on the sticker below BNU0121-WQNK

You are right about the syncro's. They were all single. Do you have a picture of the double on the EVO3? I haven't seen one before.
 
twicks69 said:
OOOOHhhhh, monte carlo..... Ultra rare.... What is the case code on that transmission? I thought it came with a viscous front differential, 2-spider center diff, Evo 1 1st gear ratio, Evo 1 2nd gear ratio, and then single synchro 3rd/4th gears with the Evo 1/2/3 ratios, and I cannot remember the 5th gear ratio or the ring/pinion gear ratios.... I have notes somewhere on this transmission, as my friend has one that we built up for his 1G AWD Eagle Talon.




As for the aftermarket gearsets that can take the power AND not blow up instantly, I would put PPG at the top of the list, then Albins, then PAR, etc.

At least with Albins, you can get an Evo 1/2/3 helical dogbox that has a welded center diff, and uses your front differential, then modifications to the 5th gear cover insides (you remove the reverse cone, wave spring, and oil guides on the cover), then modifications to the reverse gear selector bracket (or you can use an Evo 1 reverse gear selector bracket). It uses Albins shift rails/rail ends, and would go best with a set of Evo 1 solid steel shift forks for 1/2, 3/4 and 5R.

I would say that the Albins box would be the most streetable just for the fact that it is a helical gearset, resulting in less noise, but still has all the issues of a dogbox transmission for slow shifting. You need to shift fast, and with authority to use a dogbox the way it was designed; otherwise, it will require refreshing very regularly.

PPG has the best gear design on the market for the Evo 1-9 and it by far the strongest shape/design/material composition/surface finish when compared to its competitors.

As for the strength of the Albins gearset, well, I have one in front of me currently -- it has a shredded 2nd gear on the Input shaft, 2nd gear on the Intermediate shaft, and a shredded 3rd gear on the input shaft. It is the old design Evo 1/2/3 dogbox that they produce, so maybe the product quality has gone up. Either way, it looks just as weak as the Mitsubishi design because it still incorporates the same size/ thickness gears/shafts/etc. The gear tooth face thickness is slightly thicker on the Albins gearset when compared to the Mitsubishi, but I don't think that the surface strength is high enough on the Albins gearset. I would love to see a Rockwell hardness rating on it, or if they do any sort of surface treatment on it.




Baz, what kind of power levels are we talking about on your setup? 2.4L long rod with what turbo? Torque levels?

What preloads were you running on the transmission input shaft, intermediate shaft and center differential?

Were you doing your dyno runs in 3rd or 4th?

Exactly Tim, i had a PAR dog box (dont buy a PAR dogbox), and you get used to driving it on the street, you slam it into gear with a quick hit of the accelator to get the gear going smoothly in. You will figure out a pattern that will suit you.

Go ppg 4 speed gearset, and u wil never have problems with reliability when on dyno/strip. Just you will have to learn how to drive on the street, which is not hard.
 
Depends what you want Frankie. Strengthening an OEM gearbox with the right internals will increase its reliability and longevity for abuse that you can easily run a 10.xx in one. After a certain point you need to jump through ANDRA hoops if you want to get back on the track. That's when you'll find that your street car ceases to exist as a street car anymore as you put in a cage and a chute and look for weight reduction to compensate the additional items you just fitted - out goes the interior etc and say bye bye to your street car. If you're gonna do that then you're better off building a dedicated track car to begin with and throw a dogbox in that instead. A 10 second street car is quick enough and I wont be left with a dogbox inside it to curse and regularly maintain/rebuild everytime I take it out the garage :p
 
You guys can easily make a helical transmission hold 1000HP in our cars with the OEM parts by just using different combinations. It still becomes a matter of time before they fail.

I still normally torch my 3/4 hub and slider due to dyno pulls causing so much heat in 3rd gear. It discolors the riding surface for the 3/4 shift fork. It also beats up the 3rd/4th synchros at the alignment keys, as they start to mushroom out causing shifting issues.

When I ran my GT4088R setup, it was the most torque I have ever had in my car, producing over 700TQ peak, and over 600TQ from 4200rpm to 8600rpm. It was common for me to blow up transmissions because of the huge amount of torque and the fast spooling GT4088R.

The best luck I had with transmissions I built during this setup included detailing/deburring the gearset, then shot-peening and cryo-treatment. It helped me go from 5-6 transmissions in a season down to 1 breaking in 1.5 seasons. It let go on the dyno as well, after at least 200 dyno pulls over 700AWHP, and numerous track passes. It also failed simultaneously when my Quarter Master sheared the splines off both clutch disks, causing a large jolt, then twisting the splines on my input shaft, and shearing the teeth off of 3rd gear, the intermediate shaft 3rd, and my center diff housing.

Personally, if you want streetability, keep helical with synchros, and get a quality 4-spider center diff, and a front LSD upgrade (if you have an open diff). The preload settings is key on how the transmission will shift, handle power, and bearing life. Too much preload will result in excessive heat and the synchros and bearings failing faster for the benefit of ultra fast shifting. Too little preload will result in better slow-shifting, and good bearing wear, but at the sacrifice of power capacity due to gear deflection at high power levels. It just takes a bit of time to get these things figured out.

If you guys want me to post up my preload numbers, I have already made them public on the DSMLink forums. I have alot of other things that I do to the transmission other than just shimming preloads, so keep that in mind.

You can easily run 8's in a helical synchro W5M33 transmission -- it just takes the driver mod to do so.
 
You guys can make a helical transmission hold 1000HP in our cars with the OEM parts by just using different combinations. It still becomes a matter of time before they fail.

I still normally torch my 3/4 hub and slider due to dyno pulls causing so much heat in 3rd gear. It discolors the riding surface for the 3/4 shift fork. It also beats up the 3rd/4th synchros at the alignment keys, as they start to mushroom out causing shifting issues.

When I ran my GT4088R setup, it was the most torque I have ever had in my car, producing over 700TQ peak, and over 600TQ from 4200rpm to 8600rpm. It was common for me to blow up transmissions because of the huge amount of torque and the fast spooling GT4088R.

The best luck I had with transmissions I built during this setup included detailing/deburring the gearset, then shot-peening and cryo-treatment. It helped me go from 5-6 transmissions in a season down to 1 breaking in 1.5 seasons. It let go on the dyno as well, after at least 200 dyno pulls over 700AWHP, and numerous track passes. It also failed simultaneously when my Quarter Master sheared the splines off both clutch disks, causing a large jolt, then twisting the splines on my input shaft, and shearing the teeth off of 3rd gear, the intermediate shaft 3rd, and my center diff housing.

Personally, if you want streetability, keep helical with synchros, and get a quality 4-spider center diff, and a front LSD upgrade (if you have an open diff). The preload settings is key on how the transmission will shift, handle power, and bearing life. Too much preload will result in excessive heat and the synchros and bearings failing faster for the benefit of ultra fast shifting. Too little preload will result in better slow-shifting, and good bearing wear, but at the sacrifice of power capacity due to gear deflection at high power levels. It just takes a bit of time to get these things figured out.

If you guys want me to post up my preload numbers, I have already made them public on the DSMLink forums. I have alot of other things that I do to the transmission other than just shimming preloads, so keep that in mind.

You can easily run 8's in a helical synchro W5M33 transmission -- it just takes the driver mod to do so.
 
twicks69 said:
You guys can easily make a helical transmission hold 1000HP in our cars with the OEM parts by just using different combinations. It still becomes a matter of time before they fail.

I still normally torch my 3/4 hub and slider due to dyno pulls causing so much heat in 3rd gear. It discolors the riding surface for the 3/4 shift fork. It also beats up the 3rd/4th synchros at the alignment keys, as they start to mushroom out causing shifting issues.

When I ran my GT4088R setup, it was the most torque I have ever had in my car, producing over 700TQ peak, and over 600TQ from 4200rpm to 8600rpm. It was common for me to blow up transmissions because of the huge amount of torque and the fast spooling GT4088R.

The best luck I had with transmissions I built during this setup included detailing/deburring the gearset, then shot-peening and cryo-treatment. It helped me go from 5-6 transmissions in a season down to 1 breaking in 1.5 seasons. It let go on the dyno as well, after at least 200 dyno pulls over 700AWHP, and numerous track passes. It also failed simultaneously when my Quarter Master sheared the splines off both clutch disks, causing a large jolt, then twisting the splines on my input shaft, and shearing the teeth off of 3rd gear, the intermediate shaft 3rd, and my center diff housing.

Personally, if you want streetability, keep helical with synchros, and get a quality 4-spider center diff, and a front LSD upgrade (if you have an open diff). The preload settings is key on how the transmission will shift, handle power, and bearing life. Too much preload will result in excessive heat and the synchros and bearings failing faster for the benefit of ultra fast shifting. Too little preload will result in better slow-shifting, and good bearing wear, but at the sacrifice of power capacity due to gear deflection at high power levels. It just takes a bit of time to get these things figured out.

If you guys want me to post up my preload numbers, I have already made them public on the DSMLink forums. I have alot of other things that I do to the transmission other than just shimming preloads, so keep that in mind.

You can easily run 8's in a helical synchro W5M33 transmission -- it just takes the driver mod to do so.

awsome post up the preloads!!! maybe evan a complete write up on what you do to the boxes,thats if ur willing to give away some secrets:p

also i noticed you said you were using a Quarter Master clutch is that right?
 
The following is for W5M33 AWD 5-speed DSM transmissions:

Ok, stock specs are:

The Preload Setting is listed in SAE (inches):

Input Shaft --> 0.000" - 0.002" ENDPLAY
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

These are what I normally use:

Stock/Street Transmissions with less than 400TQ at the crank:

Input Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

Street/Strip Transmissions with less than 600TQ at the crank:

Input Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.007" - 0.009" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

All out RACE Transmissions that are Rebuilt/Inspected regularly with more than 600TQ at the crank:

Input Shaft --> 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.008" - 0.010" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.006" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

For Extremely HIGH HP/TQ transmissions (As in ~900-1000+TQ at the crank):

Input Shaft --> 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.010" - 0.012" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.006" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

On setups with over 1000HP....

Input Shaft --> 0.009" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.013" - 0.015" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.007" - 0.009" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - 0.004" PRELOAD

These figures are normally what I use, unless a customer has a specific number they want to run for shims.

As well, each transmission rebuilder will shim differently, or not even reshim whatsoever (reusing stock shims). Most transmission rebuilders will not tell you these numbers whatsoever, as this is what makes their transmissions shift like butter with all the other mods that they do to the shift rails, hub and sliders, gears, linkage, etc.

I would recommend using a quality Micrometer that is accurate to 0.0001", and I normally do two or three seperate solder-tests per bearing race and then take the average of each test to see if there is anything out of the ordinary, and then I select the shim by adding the preload figure listed above to the solder average thickness, or subtract the endplay figure listed above from the solder average thickness.

If you need the part number for a shim, feel free to PM me, or reference a factory service manual for all the part numbers of shims for each transmission model.



As for the clutch I use, check out my website for details:
http://www.tmzperformance.com/Mitsubishi Parts.html

I use the Quarter Master 7.25" Rally twin-disk clutch with Gear-Drive Heavy-Duty clutch disks.
 
It is the only one I recommend for high-horsepower cars that are using a multi-disk clutch and want a realistic price.

The clutch I run can easily handle over 1000TQ, and I have had no issues with it since spring 2009 when I first installed the prototype Gear-Drive disks.

When used with a Fluidampr harmonic crank damper, the clutch harmonics are dramatically reduced with the Gear-Drive disks compared to the standard heat-treated hub disks that the Quarter Master normally comes with. There is substantially less decelleration and low throttle harmonics, and it is very streetable with smooth engagement and disengagement for a race clutch.

It is also rebuildable, and can handle ALOT of abuse.
 

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