731 replies to this topic

[jack be nimble]

Running a big pump and bypassing 95% of it back to the tank most of the time doesnt seem like that good a idea either. Just makes the fuel hot, and wastes power. All the late evo have dual stage pumps arrangement.
You could have a quiet internal most of the time then have the external switched on at full noise.
There is dual internal pump frames.
You could have a internal and a external with internal divorced pickup. Plenty of options without too much clutter

No big deal. k could run dual stages on the e85 pump anyway. I was really having a dig at him over all the inputs and outputs he gets on the ecu, and trying to get your old pump sold.:-)

[EVL20T]

The fuel pump cradle fits in the other side of the tank also, wonder why no one hasnt tried throwing 2 cradles into their car on either side of the tank, may need to fit a baffle on other side though

Edited by EVL20T, 04 November 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[DOUGMO]

I did try that but as you said no baffles so I gave it a miss.

I cut my tank in half to try and run the lhs only but it was a no go in the end

[Evo-00x]

Theres plenty of guys making over 500whp in the States with just a single Walbro 416 fuel pump. I think that'll be the maximum I'll ever see even with E85 George lol

 

A single Walbro 255 flows just under 200lph at 80psi (13.5v).

Dual Walbro 255 flows around 300lph at 80psi (13.5v). - That's not a 200% increase by adding a second pump as most would expect. At this psi its approx. 5000cc/min. It will also be pretty loud I would expect.

A single Walbro 416 (aka Walbro 460) flows 270lph (12v & 16-17A) and 328lph (13.5v & 18-19A) at 80psi. That's a tad more than double Walbro 255's - or for the sake of comparison and varying results from a number of tests Ive seen, lets say 2 x Walbro 255's flow more than 1 x Walbro 416 up to 40psi of turbo boost.

The problem with the Walbro's is that in all tests, they start to drop pressure significantly at 80psi. Have a look at the very most bottom pic showing a graph comparing various pumps.

When you consider base fuel pressure in our engines is about 40psi, then those numbers above for 80psi show the flow rates at 40psi boost (40 psi base fuel pressure + 40 psi boost = 80psi test data)

Not many of us run over 40psi of boost except the drag racing boys.

 

Basically, if you keep the voltage up to them they will flow more than most would need.

I've upgraded to a 140A alternator and 2G thick power lines, also direct power from battery to fuel pump via a 30A relay and 8 gauge power cable. Using the oem fuel pump wire as the switch for the relay. 

I was seeing 14v to the battery at idle after my recent alternator and power line/earthing upgrade, so will run a multimeter across the fuel pump to see what its getting.

OEM voltage to the fuel pump is only around 7v-10v maximum.

 

Here are the specs for the Walbro 416 E85 version pump.

 

 

And some Comparisons.

As far as single intank pumps go, the Walbro 416 is unbeatable.

As far as consistency in fuel pressure across whatever boost level you are running goes, the Bosche 044 is pretty rock solid. 

 

 

 

You can see in this test that the dual Walbro 255's flow a lot but at 60psi fuel pressure (20psi turbo boost), they start to significantly lose pressure and the line drops rapidly. 

It drops to meet the Walbro 416 (aka Walbro 460) at 76psi fuel pressure (36 psi boost), where the Walbro 416 flows a little bit better for a little bit, til it too starts to drop off significantly at 80psi fuel pressure.

There's also a 0.5 volt difference in the test between some pumps but that doesn't matter too much in the overall big picture to see how the pumps behave at higher psi.

 

W255 = Single Walbro 255lph

DW300 = Deutchwerks 300lph 

W400 = Walbro 400lph (non E85 version)

W460 = Walbro 416lph (E85 version)

Dual W255 = Dual Walbro 255lph pumps.

 

Edited by EVO-00X, 05 November 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[DOUGMO]

500awhp(american) on pump fuel it will support it but the fun ends very fast on e85.

 

I think you could possibly support 350-380kw @ wheels on e85 before the fun is over. if you crank enough boost your turbo would get very cose to making that power

[jack be nimble]

Thats getting around 650 crank hp. Woohoo

[DOUGMO]

Im making 520hp@wheels (Australian ) and need two 044s, Im also on the limit of 1600cc injectors so cant run any

more boost.

[bazeng]

With that power goal you don't need thatxfer case you have Rob. I really think you should send it my way. I'll make better use of it.!!!!!!

I'll send you 3x gearboxes and 3x transfer cases for it.

[EVL20T]

Hahahhahahaa nice 1 Baz

[Evo-00x]

hahaha and put them with the other 3 x gearboxes and 2 x transfer cases I already have sitting here?

Give me your chest, biceps and legs and then we have a deal.... beef-cake .... beeeeeef-caaaaaaake!! lol

You're turning into a monster man.

[bazeng]

Lol. Worth a shot.

[leadfoot]

wanna make me one of your killer eflex ready cradles? i'll send you a stock cradle as replacement will only need it to mate to the std fuel line though

[evo-gsr]

With the pictures and descriptions Rob has already posted...surely you could do it yourself?

[leadfoot]

ima lazy like that

[evo-gsr]

 thats not the right attitude. Have a go !

[Marc]

Rogercordia called, he wants to race you...

 

Any updates??

[ted]

Hahahahaha

[EVL20T]

Hehehhe

 

[Evo-00x]

Hi boys.

 

Had the car at Micks Motorsports yesterday for a tune and the car made 328kw @ 28psi on 98 pump fuel (440hp atw).

Good end result, but something is amiss down low.

 

I don't understand why its not coming on boost as quick as expected for a GTX3076R with billet wheel and 060 A/R and 0.82 rear housing??? At 4000rpm I would have expected it to be making over 100kw but it appears laggier and not even making anywhere near as much power at the lower rpm range as the previous setup. Check this out:

 

This GTX3076R with 060 A/R ratio and 0.82 rear is making:

70kw-4000rpm / 82kw-4300rpm/ 100kw-4600rpm, 135kw-4900, 160kw-5100, 235kw-5400rpm, 290kw-5800rpm.

 

My old GT3040 with 070 A/R ratio and the same 0.82 rear was making:

100kw-4000rpm / 125kw-4300rpm/ 150kw-4600rpm, 200kw-4900, 225kw-5100, 250kw-5400rpm, 275kw-5800rpm.

 

Can anybody explain why this might be the case?

There's a very small boost leak coming from the BOV but it'll be almost negligible for the power drop.

Mick also did steady pulls on the dyno, which could be a bit misleading compared to my previous dyno with the old setup. Real world wide open throttle runs will determine the answer.   

 

I also had a problem with my radiator cap too as it was leaking a little bit of water. To make sure it wasn't a problem with the headgasket, after the last run we took the spark plugs out and checked all the bores and they were dry. A compression test was also performed and all cylinders read 190psi so she's still nice and healthy. No oil or water mixing with eachother either. Hmmmm.... something is definitely amiss and I still have to investigate to be 100% certain what the cause is as it's still pointing toward a pressurised cooling system (headgasket leak). 

 

A big thanks to my brother Mikey for towing the coupe to Sydney yesterday during heavy rain on the Freeway and through Sydney peak hour traffic   

 

Here's the dyno result.

 

 

UPDATED - FOUND THE PROBLEM AFTER REMOVING THE HEAD - YES, A LEAKING HEADGASKET!!!!

 

ON THE VERY FIRST RUN ON THE DYNO WE HEARD A LOUD 'POP' SOUND. WE THOUGHT AN INTERCOOLER PIPE HAD COME OFF BUT WE CHECKED THEM ALL AND THEY WERE ALL STILL CONNECTED. WE THEN ASSUMED IT WAS A BACKFIRE OR SHOT OF FLAME OUT THE EXHAUST. MICK CONTINUED TO TUNE THE CAR BUT WAS SCRATCHING HIS HEAD WONDERING AS TO WHY IT WASNT REACTING TO HIS TUNING THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. AFTER A FEW RUNS ON THE DYNO HE SAID SOMETHING MUST DEFINITELY BE WRONG. WE RAN A SMOKE MACHINE THROUGH THE INTERCOOLER PIPING LOOKING FOR LEAKS (JUST A SMALL ONE COMING FROM THE BOV), WE CHECKED THE CAM TIMING AND PULLED THE PLUGS OUT TO CHECK PISTON TDC, WE PULLED THE TURBO INTAKE PIPE OFF TO SEE IF THE TURBO WAS SPOOLING OK, BUT EVERYTHING CHECKED OUT FINE. THEN ONE OF THE BOYS WALKED OUT THE BACK OF THE CAR TO CHECK THE EXHAUST, HE SAW SOME WHITE AND GREY FLAKES SPRAYED ALL OVER THE FLOOR. WE TOOK THE CAR OFF THE DYNO AND MIKEY HIT THE CAT CONVERTER WITH HIS FIST AND CONFIRMED THAT HE COULD HEAR BROKEN BITS RATTLING AROUND INSIDE THE CAT. YEP.... THAT BANG SOUND WE HEARD ON THE FIRST RUN ON THE DYNO WAS THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER COLLAPSING INTERNALLY.  IT RESTRICTED EXHAUST GASES FROM ESCAPING SO AS MICK WAS TUNING AND ADDING MORE BOOST, THE ENGINE WAS CHOKING AND NOT RESPONDING THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.  WE REMOVED THE CAT, GUTTED IT OUT AND PLACED IT BACK ON THE DYNO - POWER INSTANTLY JUMPED UP AROUND 70KW ATW!!! AS WE DIDNT FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF A LEAKING HEADGASKET, MICK CONTINUED TUNING, BUT THE DAMAGE WAS ALREADY DONE. THE AMOUNT OF EXHAUST FLOW RESTRICTION LEADING UP TO THAT POINT CAUSED ENOUGH BACKPRESSURE TO LIFT THE HEAD EVER SO SLIGHTLY WHICH EXPLAINS THE WATER COMING OUT OF THE RADIATOR CAP - THIS WAS LATER CONFIRMED AGAIN AT HOME WHEN THE TOP RADIATOR HOSE INSTANTLY PRESSURISED AT ENGINE STARTUP. ALL THIS TIME, EFFORT AND $$ OVER A SIMPLE THING LIKE THE F*CKING CAT CONVERTER COLLAPSING!!! AAARRRGH!!! OVERALL, 328KW (329.5KW MAX RUN) AT ALL 4 WHEELS ON 98 PUMP WITH A LEAKING HEADGASKET IS NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF  AT LEAST I KNOW THE ENGINE INTERNALS ARE HEALTHY AND THE IGNITION AND FUEL SYSTEM ARE UP TO THE TASK. AS FOR NOW, ITS TIME TO GO SHOPPING FOR NEW HEADSTUDS AND A HEADGASKET.          

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Edited by EVO-00X, 02 January 2016 - 02:16 AM.

[Marc]

Rogercordia and his toy Lion are not impressed.....

 

 

Very good Rob, please tell me you drove it home. Will be good to see it out and about more now i assume it will, all these years building, now time to go out and enjoy it