39 replies to this topic

[evopowa]

In real life or on youtube?

The difference in hp I'm talking about is the variance from dyno to dyno.

ie hub dyno to chassis dyno.
one brand to another brand.

Lets put it another way, you want an 8 second car?

no id be happy with a 10 second car

[evopowa]

u.s dynos usually are 15-25% higher reading than australian dyno's.

that is not off wiki its a known fact.

based on what? show me some proof.

Their fuel is a lot better than ours for one, two their dyno reads higher, and i also believe that the altitude/ location of a drag strip can also be a factor in running times and due to climate/air density etc etc.

In sayign that australia and nz still elad the way with the fastest evo's

Getting a car to 300kws at all 4 reliably is no easy feat as many who have had that "its easy to get there" attitude has found out.

how is the fuel better? i always use 98, optionally i could use 110 next time i fill up the cessna

of course the climate makes a difference, sometimes when it gets to 1 or 2C here at night my car really cracks.

as for reliability...evo's are not reliable anyway the 6 and 4 have both spent more time off the road than on it...and they are very expensive on parts

[bazeng]

For 10's you'd only need something around 300kw's - 400kw's with a good drivetrain to back it up.

In an evo6 which is stripped or street spec?

[evopowa]

street spec.

what kind of drive train are you talking about? better box etc?

[tenji`]

based on what? show me some proof.



how is the fuel better? i always use 98, optionally i could use 110 next time i fill up the cessna

of course the climate makes a difference, sometimes when it gets to 1 or 2C here at night my car really cracks.

as for reliability...evo's are not reliable anyway the 6 and 4 have both spent more time off the road than on it...and they are very expensive on parts

go speak to the boys on evo oz... who have bought and done the exact setup also speak to all the longterm members on every other forum it will come to the same conclusion that the u.s dynos read higher than ours.

Also even the u.s boys know their dyno's are higher reading than ours. If they have accepted it im sure you should be able to also. www.evolutionm.net

america claims the evo green turbo is capable of running a 10 yet no one here has even cracked an 11 with one.

best ive seen is a 12 flat from a friends car.

our 98 is like their crap fuel (i think 95 or less) over there.


you can argue as much as you like about these things and ppl who have been there will tell you the same things over n over again.


also heres a post from a very knowledgable work colleague of mine who has been in the performance automotive industry for many a years which i was very priviledged to work with and learn from.

MattJ Forum Contributor
Last Online: 26-07-2009 05:37 PM
Member Since: Dec 2001
Location: I dont know any more...
Current Ride: VX SS M6, BF Typhoon A6

Dyno Mythbuster...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have touched on my despair of dyno figures and the importance most people put on the numbers at the top of the dyno sheet in a few posts over the years. I just thought I’d start a dyno Mythbusters post and pass on some of my findings over the years. This is something I have wanted to write for years as in my position of performance sales manager I have to deal with this sort of thing countless times a day. Not everyone will be happy reading this as a lot of people here and on other forums hold the dyno sheet close to the ego.

Also, I can see how some shops feel that they have to provide big numbers as the customer demands the same figure as his mate or some guy on the forum with similar mods. But in the end, it starts and finishes with the performance dyno shops.

I bought a BF Typhoon about 2 months ago, the previous owner had the car tuned with injectors and a cat mod. He was given a dyno sheet stating 315rwkw. I did not buy the car because of the stated power nor am I for a second suggesting the previous owner pulled a shifty, but when I got the car back home, and without touching a thing, it made 279rwkw on the HP-F dyno. Where the missing 35rwkw fits into the list below, I don’t know. But this is the sort of thing that can make a customer think that one shop is shit and another the kings.

No dyno reads exactly the same! HP-F have two dyno’s, they read different. A dyno is not a ruler where 30cm is always 30cm wherever it’s measured. Every dyno company and just about every shop will say theirs reads more accurate or more repeatable which is great, but the simple fact is that every dyno reads different and comparing one to another is folly. The difference between one run and the next on the same dyno is what you need to keep in mind.

There is more than one way to dyno a car! HP-F have had the privilege to be able to build and tune some of the tuffest dyno cars in the country, the dyno HP-F use to tune the big bangers is set up to make 1700+hp turn the rollers with minimal slip and when Dyno Dynamics wants there latest technology tested they come to us. Utilising this latest technology gives us no choice but to follow the rules when strapping down a car. The Dyno Dynamics dyno is calibrated to have the rear rollers stay in constant contact with the wheels all the way through the run, if they come off, the power number will be inaccurate and read higher than it should. Strapping down of the car on the dyno has a huge effect on the final reading, a car with loose straps will ride up on the front roller for most of the run and then normally just after peak power the car will sit back in onto both rollers, you can see on the graph when this happens as the power line drops, looking something like (and often confused with) faulty valve springs.

The dyno is only as good as its operator! There is quite a few other ways for the dyno to read inaccurately, the incorrect placement of the intake air temp probe is a beauty and incorrectly typing in Barometer reading will have a real effect. All these things are easy to avoid for the alert operator and easy to tamper with for the dishonest. Calibration and regular service can also help maintain constant, reliable numbers.

Different tyres will read different power! We once had a car make a lot less power then what we thought it should for the given mods, we got the car up on the hoist, searched high and low, checked compression, double checked the tune, dropped the exhaust, changed intakes, you name it we tried it. Nothing doing. One of the guys took a backward step, had a look at the car and suggested we should try different tyres. The ones on the car were brand new but what did we have to loose? We pulled a couple of wheels of Rob’s ute and bung ‘em on. The car picked up the lost power, and some… 25rwkw from a tyre change!! Tell me, how do you compare one car to another?

Each engine is different! Two cars with the same mods rarely make the same power, even in standard form most cars make different power on the dyno. Or what about auto or manual? High stall torque converters? These thing all effect the power readings. Again, how do you compare one car to another?

A tune for the dyno and a tune for the road! Simple really, a lot of times the final run on the dyno needs to be trimmed up to stop the odd ping found on the road test, big problem with XR6-Turbo’s. The main issue with this is that you pick up your car with X-power figure on the dyno graph and a few days later you dyno the car somewhere else and it reads low or, your mate expects what your makes. What about a race cam in a road car, you want to replace valve springs every 20,000 kays or do you want to flycut the pistons to fit it in?? Nothing wrong with either of these two options if your prepared to go through it, but to base you figures for a ‘cam only’ upgrade on custom shop set up’s is folly.

And Finally…

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story! How the car was run up on the dyno is another thing. Race fuel? Shhssh don’t tell anyone. The problem with that is that one day your going to have to repeat it and one day the car might be out of your hands and the questions will start. Disclosure of the facts is important as anything else if you want to be taken seriously and not live a life where everyone now doubts your every move. So how can you tell? Simply, you probably cant, but like life, if it is seems too good to be true, it most probably is.

Ultimately, the car makes what the car makes, its fine to have goals but the basis of these goals has to be reality. Sorry for the long post...

heres the original post
http://www.ls1.com.a...ad.php?t=115091

and also another decent read

http://www.supraforu...ead.php?t=46814

and here

http://forums.eurocc...ad.php?p=379187

Edited by tenji`, 20 August 2009 - 06:09 AM.

[bazeng]

street you'll need more power to compensate for the weight disadvantage and tyres (unless you want street with slicks??)

Alot of the boys here with 300+kw's are running in the 11's.
So keep in mind that 300kw's will get you close.

Drivetrain issues are what is holding back the boys..

Keep note, if an XR6 turbo can run a 10.8 with 370 rwkw's and run a lower mph (125) vs tenji's 130mph with less power (330kw), it shows that if a 1800kg car can do a high 10 with a lower mph, then tenji (on a good run) will/should be able to do similar/better due to the weight advantage and traction advantage

[evopowa]

street you'll need more power to compensate for the weight disadvantage and tyres (unless you want street with slicks??)

Alot of the boys here with 300+kw's are running in the 11's.
So keep in mind that 300kw's will get you close.

Drivetrain issues are what is holding back the boys..

Keep note, if an XR6 turbo can run a 10.8 with 370 rwkw's and run a lower mph (125) vs tenji's 130mph with less power (330kw), it shows that if a 1800kg car can do a high 10 with a lower mph, then tenji (on a good run) will/should be able to do similar/better due to the weight advantage and traction advantage

i had an xr6 turbo manual tuned by c & v running 320kw @ engine and it was supposed to do 11.5 (previous owner)...i dont believe it, the evo smashes it, so my evo should be doing 10's if that were true.

anyway thanks for the advice i guess ill just mess with it until its how i want it..

it can spin all 4's in 1st and 2nd now...i want it spinning in 4th..

btw heres one 8 second evo, look on youtube there is supposed to be a few 8 sec cars in the US

[Entaran]

US fuel is actually 87 octane, their highest pump fuel is the equivalent of 95 RON. You can find 98 in MAJOR centres like LA, NYC and Detroit but it's rare like us finding 100 RON fuel on the pump (Melb only etc).

Good luck with your goals, first step, go talk to PPG and buy a 15k gearbox to hold it all together. Don't forget the matching transfer case. Evo's were never meant to make 600kw, they aren't 34 GTR's or 2JZ supra's. The beauty of the evo is in the handling and ability to tackle anything at a stupid rate not in its blistering straight line speed. Baz has more experience in this than any of the rest of us, sounds to me like you should really be talking to the guys at evo-oz and comparing HKS bits.

[Entaran]

Also you can't compare an 8 second dedicated drag car with a 10 second street car.

At all.

There's nothing remotely similar, that 8 second car could not under any circumstances be driven on the street.

[bazeng]

I know of a 320kw xr6 4speed running 11.4..
They are actually very fast cars!

Maybe the evo just feels faster due to the weight of the car.

[Entaran]

Or the launch

[tenji`]

anyone can spin in 1st n 2nd.

just depends on the type of road and tyres your on.


u.s cars dont impress me as much as they used to.

we dont live in the u.s, we live in australia...

we still have the quickest evo in the world.

and the second quickest is in New Zealand.

If you want tips on building a fast car new zealand is a very good source for information.

[evopowa]

I know of a 320kw xr6 4speed running 11.4..
They are actually very fast cars!

Maybe the evo just feels faster due to the weight of the car.

i lined them up and smashed the xr...the xr only starts pulling away over 200kmh

[evopowa]

http://www.ppgearbox...41&productid=25

this looks good to me..any thoughts?

[evopwr]

Edit: Keep It on Topic Please

Edited by Dean, 20 August 2009 - 07:34 AM.

[bazeng]

Get some semi slicks/slicks on the xr6 and it'll be a different car!!

On topic: that PPG will be required for you to run your 10's mate!

[CLuTZ]

and a twin plate

[evopowa]

and a twin plate

what type/brand?

the latest clutch in it is a crappy organic supposed to be better than HD but after about 1500 k's its almost dead too

it was either xtreme or excedy

clutch bloke rekons it needs a '6 puk' clutch but i dont know much about clutches

[CLuTZ]

For 600kw you will need a triple plate. Exedy.

[bazeng]

as Dre said.

Or an Auto