20 replies to this topic

[The Godfather]

im chasing more power and running C16 is an option just wanting to hear from others experiences.

does the fuel system have to upgraded significantly? injectors? i Already have a walbro intank and bosch 044 external

only need the extra power for the odd drag meet and events like powercruise, summernats etc



Adrian

[twicks69]

C16 is a very nice fuel that will allow you to run substantially higher boost levels with moderate ignition timing. I would recommend C16 up to 35-40psi.

I prefer VP Q16, and VP Import race fuels. I am not sure if you guys can get it down there, but they are both oxygenated and leaded race fuels that allow you to run substantially higher boost levels and more aggresive ignition maps and allow you to increase power 5-10% over VP C16. You can also get away with slightly more aggressive air-fuel ratios in the low/mid 12:1 AFR's without detonation issues at boost levels as high as 50+psi.

I have ran C16, Q16 and Import for years with good results. The Q16 should be the same price as the C16, and produces better results for power and consistency.

What fuel are you currently running? If you already have the Walbro in-tank and 044 in-line, you should have more than plenty fuel delivery for your setup. I would say that if your fuel injectors were 1000cc or larger, you should have no issues whatsoever producing over 600-700AWHP.

I ran my setup on C16 to 709 AWHP on my GT4088R with Walbro in-tank/in-line dual pumps and 1000cc injectors at 41psi. The same setup produced ~740 AWHP on Q16 with the same boost levels. I ended up making 766AWHP/713TQ at 42psi on Q16/Import mix before the turbo failed.

[The Godfather]

what if your boost levels were to stay the same but more timing and tuning? would you see any increases in power?

im just on pump gas and im currently using 750cc injectors so would prob need to upgrade? i only wish to gain about another 150hp im on roughly 270kw - 362hp @ 20psi @ 7800rpm so would like to see as close to 500hp as i can. motor can do 9000rpm and take about 25psi on pump gas.

ive heard a few good anf bad things about Q16 i heard it can be corrosive?

[bazeng]

I have, it's soo good that you really don't have a limit until something breaks! LOL

I cracked a cylinder wall (sleeved) with C16.
Power went from 330kw's at the wheels to about 410kw's at the wheels with an additional 7 psi. It still didn't ping.

It is a good fuel, but costly. I'm sort of limiting myself these days so only pump fuel for me.

[The Godfather]

haha nice,

pitty about the price!! how much does your car typically go through? does it eat it faster than pump gas? its like $250 for 20L so $500 a tank!!!

[JSTYLE]

thought about e85? atleast in the future u can get it at ur local servo.

Jon

[The Godfather]

yeah i thought about e85 but heard too many bad things:

eats rubber hoses
all hoses need to be teflon coated
anything plastic will be eaten
most fuel pumps wont last long on e85
it absorbs water really fast so not good to let sit in tank for a couple days
and fuel injectors need to be massive like 1600cc minimum.
there were some other things but i forget now...

well going by the price of C16 looks like thats out the window too :@

what about other blends? c10, c14 etc? vp110? would they be the same as c16 but with slightly less gains?

gonna look into nos, as i have a brand new kit sitting here...

[D3bb4]

e85 is less energy content. so you need to burn more to get same amount of power from it. hence massive system requirements.

[brisvr4]

I am amazed at some of the rumours going around about E85.

eats rubber hoses - pre 80's cars would be in trouble, not us
all hoses need to be teflon coated - I run aeroquip pushlok hose-no problems
anything plastic will be eaten - Exactly what is plastic in your fuel system other than the float?
most fuel pumps wont last long on e85 - Tell that to mine! Walbro 255 intank, again no problems
it absorbs water really fast so not good to let sit in tank for a couple days - I've had the car off the road with broken bits for up to 3 months at a time. As long as you leave the fuel cap on you will be fine. A couple of days is nothing. E85 is Hygroscopic though and I would not leave a drum of it sitting around for long periods with the lid off.
and fuel injectors need to be massive like 1600cc minimum. This I do tend to agree with, the bigger the better with E85. I run 1450's in mine and they are at about 75% idc's at just over 30psi on a 50 trim turbo. That said, they idle like stock and still get decent fuel economy unless I throw my right foot into it!

What it will do is pick up all the crap in your tank and fuel lines for the first couple of tanks. You will find that you need to change your fuel filter at least twice in the first couple.

[The Godfather]

I am amazed at some of the rumours going around about E85.

eats rubber hoses - pre 80's cars would be in trouble, not us
all hoses need to be teflon coated - I run aeroquip pushlok hose-no problems
anything plastic will be eaten - Exactly what is plastic in your fuel system other than the float?
most fuel pumps wont last long on e85 - Tell that to mine! Walbro 255 intank, again no problems
it absorbs water really fast so not good to let sit in tank for a couple days - I've had the car off the road with broken bits for up to 3 months at a time. As long as you leave the fuel cap on you will be fine. A couple of days is nothing. E85 is Hygroscopic though and I would not leave a drum of it sitting around for long periods with the lid off.
and fuel injectors need to be massive like 1600cc minimum. This I do tend to agree with, the bigger the better with E85. I run 1450's in mine and they are at about 75% idc's at just over 30psi on a 50 trim turbo. That said, they idle like stock and still get decent fuel economy unless I throw my right foot into it!

What it will do is pick up all the crap in your tank and fuel lines for the first couple of tanks. You will find that you need to change your fuel filter at least twice in the first couple.

i have a surge tank and external bosch that use rubber fuel hose.

and was told the only pump that would last maybe 12 months on e85 would be a bosch, how long has your walbro been on e85?

whats your fuel usage like on the 1450cc's on pump fuel? how do they run with pump fuel?

[The Godfather]

has anyone used or knows about these other fuels? might still get gains and be cheaper than c16...?

http://www.vpracing.com.au/leaded.htm

or

http://www.vpracing....au/unleaded.htm

[twicks69]

Well, the "Roo16" looks like it is our "Q16" in the USA.

Personally, the cost of the fuel is worth it for huge power and more aggressive tunes. Yes, it is expensive -- Q16 is ~$75.00US for a 19L pail. VP Import is ~125.00US for a 19L pail. I have a 60L fuel tank in my Eclipse -- you get the idea how much it costs for me to fill up!

As an alternative, have you thought about methanol injection in conjunction with your pump gas? A simple meth injection kit can dramatically increase your power levels -- especially when spraying 100% methanol instead of a 50/50 mix. A single nozzle setup at the throttle body would be more than sufficient to get some solid HP gains. It may not be as much as you would see on 100% VP Q16, but it would be beneficial for sure.

As well, VP Q16 is an oxygenated leaded race fuel -- any oxygenated fuel will be corrosive to some level -- its not as bad as you think. I leave my tank filled with race fuel for 6-8 months at a time. I just use stainless braided fuel lines, and quality injector O-rings, and use stainless steel fuel filters.

If you are going to switch to E85, you will need injectors closer to 1000cc's to capacitate the same volume as you currently use on your 780cc injectors on pump gas to produce the same amount of power. To capacitate 25% more power, you will need a minimum of 25% more fuel injector, resulting in approximately a 1250 or 1350cc fuel injector. A good candidate for this would then be the FIC BlueMax 1250 or 1350cc fuel injectors.

Your fuel pumps are capable of handling around 1000HP on race gas (C16/Q16/VP Import), and around 700-750HP on E85. You will be able to hit your power goals on E85 with larger injectors and stainless or pushlock fuel lines and quality fittings. I would recommend having your fuel rail anodized; or purchase an anodized rail. The cast aluminum will corrode the quickest when compared to your fuel lines or fuel tank.

If you use methanol injection on top of your current fuel setup, you will be able to get more out of the vehicle while reducing your injector duty cycles because the methanol you inject will cool the intake charge, and create a more efficient combustion cycle -- all while producing more power, and giving you the ability to run more aggressive ignition timing maps.

They all have their benefits, and it is up to each person to decide which direction that they want to go.

Please understand that there are alot of misconceptions about these exotic fuels and injection methods, and most of the rumors are from people that have no experience whatsoever with these methods. It is best to do some research, then choose a method to try and then gain experience first hand.

Good luck,

Edited by twicks69, 22 March 2010 - 02:07 PM.

[The Godfather]

well i actually have looked at water/meth injection and wasnt convinced.. the gains to be had werent significant enough, i posted the meth questions in other forums and they said i would be lucky to see single digit % increases in power. i know of all the other benefits etc but i want power lol and im not after making 600+++hp im happy with 450-500hp enough to still run stock driveline with a lazy 10 sec pass. awd's just werent built to make huge power reliably...

Tim: what do you think my power increases would be on 50/50 water meth? without going 35+psi around 30psi would be ok. i read 100% meth can be corrosive and also unstablein the combustion chamber.?

and same with c16 do you only see effects when you add more boost and timing?

[twicks69]

The increases on 50/50 meth/water will likely be in the 20-40whp range depending on boost levels and ignition timing. The more methanol you use, the more power gains there are to be had, hence the reason why I recommend running 100% methanol injection with the proper lines/fittings/containment cell to prevent corrosion issues.

What compression are you running on your engine?

With running C16 or Q16 (Roo16), the power gains will be at higher boost levels where pump gas just cannot produce power without detonation potential. You can make more power at lower boost levels on C16 vs. pump gas based upon more aggressive air-fuel ratios and more aggressive ignition timing.

[The Godfather]

not sure on exact comp ratio but my pistons now are 8.3:1 and i have a 1.2mm head gasket, stock comp ratio was 9:1 im pretty sure so i would be a fair bit lower than that, plan was to go lower comp to run more boost...!

what are the downsides to running 100%meth? what should i be changing?

[FRANK-E]

C16 is the bomb! love the smell of it burning

have always used it when putting sum boost in TOY and will continue using it in the cars

my tuner has been doing some testing with the fuel (e85).
on a gti starlet in testing there was only 4hp differance between E85 and c16
he also found that if you use e85 then pump fuel thats when it was more corrosive


he also told me that there is a place selling the stuff now and will deliver it to your door for $1.70 a litre

Edited by FRANK-E, 23 March 2010 - 02:18 AM.

[The Godfather]

The increases on 50/50 meth/water will likely be in the 20-40whp range depending on boost levels and ignition timing. The more methanol you use, the more power gains there are to be had, hence the reason why I recommend running 100% methanol injection with the proper lines/fittings/containment cell to prevent corrosion issues.

What compression are you running on your engine?

With running C16 or Q16 (Roo16), the power gains will be at higher boost levels where pump gas just cannot produce power without detonation potential. You can make more power at lower boost levels on C16 vs. pump gas based upon more aggressive air-fuel ratios and more aggressive ignition timing.

Any meth injection kit should have the proper lines/fittings etc but before purchase i will make sure to ask as i know some pumps dont like 100% meth.

also what % of meth should i be injecting? 12% 15%? and what cc/min would you suggest?

lol a meth kit is the price of 2 tanks of c16 so im better off going the meth injection,

[twicks69]

Most guys I know make their own methanol setups.

Here are some links to check out for how to build it yourself:

DIY Meth Injection:
http://www.turbomira...parts-list.html

This site has a complete breakdown of the parts required for use, as well as upgrades, installation instructions, maintenence instructions, electrical and plumbing instructions and diagrams, etc. It is well-written and very detailed.

High Quality SHURflo Pump - Methanol compatible:
http://www.coolingmi...key=water_pumps

Nozzles:
Medium Nozzle
P/N 3178K76
Found at McMaster Carr
Cost: $4.00US
Flow: 6.32gph@40psi, 10.0gph@100psi

Large Nozzle
P/N 3178K77
Found at McMaster Carr
Cost: $4.00US
Flow: 9.49gph@40psi, 15.0gph@100psi

[The Godfather]

C16 is the bomb! love the smell of it burning

have always used it when putting sum boost in TOY and will continue using it in the cars

my tuner has been doing some testing with the fuel (e85).
on a gti starlet in testing there was only 4hp differance between E85 and c16
he also found that if you use e85 then pump fuel thats when it was more corrosive


he also told me that there is a place selling the stuff now and will deliver it to your door for $1.70 a litre

how many tanks you ran through toy frank? and what boost did you run on it? i forget what power you made on it too...??

im guessing thats e85 delivered for $1.70...

[ziad]

hmm i know its two weeks old but just wanted to say a little about meth/water injection.

i have a aquamist hfs3 system, its a PWM system so it follows ur injector duty cycle.. so will come on slowly until you reach max duty cycle. I have been using a mix of about 50/50 water/meth. about the power improvement, i had originally tuned my car for 100ron. now i am running 95ron so had to pull a lot of boost and timing.

anyway now with not much tuning (still more to go) i am running the same boost as before on 100ron, same timing as before and running leaner than before (11.6-8 before now its about ~12.1) and no knock. I am sure there is more in there.

usage of meth, obviously dont use any while cruising but been tuning etc and have filled up 3 tanks of fuel and only used 7L of the mixture.

50/50 is not flammable, obviously 100% meth is more dangerous.