Hi guys
One modified vehicle certification scheme for all Australians
https://www.facebook...271539326217844
Send the link out to all your Facebook Friends so that they may spread the word and disseminate onto others.
Notable Quote: Put simply, NSW RTA don't want modified cars on the road, and because they can't outlaw them the next best thing is make it near impossable or rediculously expensive to engineer them, thinking that it will stop us.
Please... those who actually gave a shit to do something about it aided holding back the introduction of the new VSCCS when it was planned for release on September 30. However, the Motoring authorities are planning to get the Minister to sign off on the VSCCS in December now .
We need to gather support for a unified modification scheme and Facebook, at the moment, is a good tool to express your views and concerns.
Your comments are most welcome.
Spread the word.
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One modified vehicle certification scheme for all Australians
Started by Evo-00x, Nov 22 2011 01:04 PM
#1
Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:04 PM
AWD. 2 Litre. GTX3076R 0.82.
330kw atw @ 28psi 98 pump fuel.
372kw atw @ 28psi E85 Flexfuel.
EVOLVED AWD COUPE
WWW.EVOCOUPE.NET
330kw atw @ 28psi 98 pump fuel.
372kw atw @ 28psi E85 Flexfuel.
EVOLVED AWD COUPE
WWW.EVOCOUPE.NET
#2
Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:09 PM
I'm confused how all this works. ADRs stipulate rules already??? the hell is with the schemes?
#3
Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:07 PM
ADR's are national standards that must be complied to. However they dont cover everything, nor describe the means of inspecting or testing your vehicle's modifications to deem whether they still comply/effect the ADR's. If it was up to the Govt, their tunnel vision would only deem all OEM cars ADR complaint and you cannot change a thing!!. Put simply, as soon as you modify something the mods must be inspected by a qualified representative of your State's motoring authority to ensure your car still complies to the ADR's. This can be done via a normal blue slip or pink slip authorised inspection station. When the mods fall outside of what is acceptable as 'owner certified modifications', you need to engage the services of a professional engineering signatory recognised by your states motoring authority.
This whole shamozzle is about how each state interprets ADR's differently as to what is acceptable or not acceptable, how they do the testing and what new hoops the govt wants to set in place in order for an engineer to prove compliance!. The onus of responsibility on an engineer is much greater now because the new VSCCS points the barrel of a gun at them. The engineers need to have in place certain insurances that add to their costs and also must perform more stringent and complicated testing methods in order to prove your vehicle's compliance to the ADR's. Consequently these added costs are going to be passed onto you, the modifier. But its not only about the $$, its also about getting an engineer happy enough to pass your car because they are now legally liable for accepting the risk if something they pass fails. They also must hold insurance for a period of 7 years after certifying your car!!! This 7 years of insurance will be included as part of your fee from an engineer to start with. Naturally, because of the added risks, an engineer's standards and expectations change too. What's OK for one engineer may not be to another. Again, only compounding the confusion to the average Joe and the system again is more convoluted and expensive. Coincidentally, many engineers refuse to work under the new scheme and will or already have ceased operations as a result of it. Therefore less engineers = more demand for the ones stll operating = basic supply and demand principles = $$$$$$. My car was engineered under the old ECS (Engineer Certification Scheme), but my brother's car which was engineered in September was done under the new scheme by an engineer that charged something like $195 per hour from memory. Some engineers may have a fixed cost, others will charge by the hour. If your car is heavily modified in all areas and you engage the services of an engineer that charges by the hour, you're up for a few thousand dollars in fees, especially if he is very thorough and has to chase up evidence why all your mods meet ADR's. To save yourself some $$ and the engineer time, a modifer should be keeping a list of modifications and certificates from manufacturers of suspension, steering wheels, etc that prove what standard they are made to. In short, put together an Engineering Support Document that you can hand over to an engineer when you engage one.
COSTS?
To shed some light on testing methods and costs that may be required to do, here are a few examples that have to be paid for whether you pass or fail.
1) IM240 Emissions test - In NSW its free in Sydney locations at Botany and Penrith. In all other states you may be charged up to $2500 pass or fail each test!!! Expect to wait several weeks to book your car in for a test.
2) Stationery Exhaust Noise Test - Usually around the $90-$100 mark
3) Brake test - No, not your normal pink slip 40kmh test either!!! Under the new testing regime I have heard of an engineer test braking performance at high speeds of up to 160kmh and during several hot and cold brake runs!! You cant perfrom these tests on the street, therefore you need to pay for the expense of hiring a track out where you have sufficient distances to perform these tests. In NSW, one engineer privately hired out WSID for a day and perfromed nearly 20 hot and cold passes up and down the strip (which contradicts WSID's safety regs going in the opposite direction), just in order to prove that the new non OEM brake package was acceptable. The cost of about $2500 was passed onto the consumer! Again. expect to wait weeks even months for a date to book your car into off-street circuits or strips.
4) Drive by noise test - This is when the noise of your induction system changes with an engine swap. If the engineer deems that your induction noise level has changed significantly over OEM, then a drive-by noise test is required. They are difficult to setup and also expensive. Last I heard the test from one engineer was $800!.
5) Say $195 per hour for an engineer. Sounds high? but it could include his added expenses for insurance cover. If you engage services for 8 hours = $1560 for example.
6) Cost of floating your car if it fails a test = Under the old rules you were allowed to drive a modified car for the purposes of inspection. If it fails you were also allowed to drive it home. Under the new rules if you fail onsite, you're not allowed to drive it home. You need to get it towed. Costs varies on tilt tray tow trucks and distance to tow you car back to your home/workshop.
7) Other costs associated with getting things done to pass if an engineer is not satisfied with them - tyres, suspension, seats, seatbelts, lights, engine, welding, new cat converter, exhaust, inake, fueling, you name it...
I get CC'd in some correspondence with Athol and other enthusiasts and members of certain groups. This one below I chuckled at yesterday.
****************************************
Ahol,
I follow you mate. Im a supporter of the idea and so will extend to Rob a means to link the page so he can pass it around.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/One-modified-vehicle-certification-scheme-for-all-Australians/271539326217844
I hope more and more people support this. Its insanity to find such a broad difference across Australia. VSB14 should be ratified by all states. No supplements are needed. We in the scene know it's a well written and considered document.
As for the VSCCS I laugh at the people involved for their ignorance. We all like the idea they are trying to float in principle. Its the insulting lack of credentials it requires and the ridiculous insurance provisions that make a perfectly good basis for a system into a total waste of time. Im glad the engineers are all choosing not to sign it! Why would anyone want to sign such crap. Especially when it makes a mockery of what it took for you to become an engineer in the first place.
I just hope the sign off of the present documents and system never happens at the higher level. If it does it only goes to prove the level of ignorance and stupidity at the top as these monkeys take to pushing all modified cars off the streets on their quest to nanny state us all into new cars. They cant wrap us all in 5 start safety rated cars its as simple as that.
Responsible modification has never killed people in my mind. Though I expect a few foolish decisions by owners or drivers may have over the years. The vast majority of accidents they base the whole opposition to modified cars on, is crashes involving either unmodified, backyard chopped, illegally modified or irresponsibly modified vehicles and most of the time they were in the hands of idiots. The standard commodore has and will continue to be the vehicle with the highest involvement in crashes in Australia.
Once we have a better indication of what the system is doing Athol I would like to seek your advice on my project. I simply wont go any further without knowing what the long term ramifications of my choices now are.
Look forward to future chats and supporting the cause all the way.
Kindest Regards,
*****
This whole shamozzle is about how each state interprets ADR's differently as to what is acceptable or not acceptable, how they do the testing and what new hoops the govt wants to set in place in order for an engineer to prove compliance!. The onus of responsibility on an engineer is much greater now because the new VSCCS points the barrel of a gun at them. The engineers need to have in place certain insurances that add to their costs and also must perform more stringent and complicated testing methods in order to prove your vehicle's compliance to the ADR's. Consequently these added costs are going to be passed onto you, the modifier. But its not only about the $$, its also about getting an engineer happy enough to pass your car because they are now legally liable for accepting the risk if something they pass fails. They also must hold insurance for a period of 7 years after certifying your car!!! This 7 years of insurance will be included as part of your fee from an engineer to start with. Naturally, because of the added risks, an engineer's standards and expectations change too. What's OK for one engineer may not be to another. Again, only compounding the confusion to the average Joe and the system again is more convoluted and expensive. Coincidentally, many engineers refuse to work under the new scheme and will or already have ceased operations as a result of it. Therefore less engineers = more demand for the ones stll operating = basic supply and demand principles = $$$$$$. My car was engineered under the old ECS (Engineer Certification Scheme), but my brother's car which was engineered in September was done under the new scheme by an engineer that charged something like $195 per hour from memory. Some engineers may have a fixed cost, others will charge by the hour. If your car is heavily modified in all areas and you engage the services of an engineer that charges by the hour, you're up for a few thousand dollars in fees, especially if he is very thorough and has to chase up evidence why all your mods meet ADR's. To save yourself some $$ and the engineer time, a modifer should be keeping a list of modifications and certificates from manufacturers of suspension, steering wheels, etc that prove what standard they are made to. In short, put together an Engineering Support Document that you can hand over to an engineer when you engage one.
COSTS?
To shed some light on testing methods and costs that may be required to do, here are a few examples that have to be paid for whether you pass or fail.
1) IM240 Emissions test - In NSW its free in Sydney locations at Botany and Penrith. In all other states you may be charged up to $2500 pass or fail each test!!! Expect to wait several weeks to book your car in for a test.
2) Stationery Exhaust Noise Test - Usually around the $90-$100 mark
3) Brake test - No, not your normal pink slip 40kmh test either!!! Under the new testing regime I have heard of an engineer test braking performance at high speeds of up to 160kmh and during several hot and cold brake runs!! You cant perfrom these tests on the street, therefore you need to pay for the expense of hiring a track out where you have sufficient distances to perform these tests. In NSW, one engineer privately hired out WSID for a day and perfromed nearly 20 hot and cold passes up and down the strip (which contradicts WSID's safety regs going in the opposite direction), just in order to prove that the new non OEM brake package was acceptable. The cost of about $2500 was passed onto the consumer! Again. expect to wait weeks even months for a date to book your car into off-street circuits or strips.
4) Drive by noise test - This is when the noise of your induction system changes with an engine swap. If the engineer deems that your induction noise level has changed significantly over OEM, then a drive-by noise test is required. They are difficult to setup and also expensive. Last I heard the test from one engineer was $800!.
5) Say $195 per hour for an engineer. Sounds high? but it could include his added expenses for insurance cover. If you engage services for 8 hours = $1560 for example.
6) Cost of floating your car if it fails a test = Under the old rules you were allowed to drive a modified car for the purposes of inspection. If it fails you were also allowed to drive it home. Under the new rules if you fail onsite, you're not allowed to drive it home. You need to get it towed. Costs varies on tilt tray tow trucks and distance to tow you car back to your home/workshop.
7) Other costs associated with getting things done to pass if an engineer is not satisfied with them - tyres, suspension, seats, seatbelts, lights, engine, welding, new cat converter, exhaust, inake, fueling, you name it...
I get CC'd in some correspondence with Athol and other enthusiasts and members of certain groups. This one below I chuckled at yesterday.
****************************************
Ahol,
I follow you mate. Im a supporter of the idea and so will extend to Rob a means to link the page so he can pass it around.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/One-modified-vehicle-certification-scheme-for-all-Australians/271539326217844
I hope more and more people support this. Its insanity to find such a broad difference across Australia. VSB14 should be ratified by all states. No supplements are needed. We in the scene know it's a well written and considered document.
As for the VSCCS I laugh at the people involved for their ignorance. We all like the idea they are trying to float in principle. Its the insulting lack of credentials it requires and the ridiculous insurance provisions that make a perfectly good basis for a system into a total waste of time. Im glad the engineers are all choosing not to sign it! Why would anyone want to sign such crap. Especially when it makes a mockery of what it took for you to become an engineer in the first place.
I just hope the sign off of the present documents and system never happens at the higher level. If it does it only goes to prove the level of ignorance and stupidity at the top as these monkeys take to pushing all modified cars off the streets on their quest to nanny state us all into new cars. They cant wrap us all in 5 start safety rated cars its as simple as that.
Responsible modification has never killed people in my mind. Though I expect a few foolish decisions by owners or drivers may have over the years. The vast majority of accidents they base the whole opposition to modified cars on, is crashes involving either unmodified, backyard chopped, illegally modified or irresponsibly modified vehicles and most of the time they were in the hands of idiots. The standard commodore has and will continue to be the vehicle with the highest involvement in crashes in Australia.
Once we have a better indication of what the system is doing Athol I would like to seek your advice on my project. I simply wont go any further without knowing what the long term ramifications of my choices now are.
Look forward to future chats and supporting the cause all the way.
Kindest Regards,
*****
Edited by EVO-00X, 25 November 2011 - 10:58 PM.
AWD. 2 Litre. GTX3076R 0.82.
330kw atw @ 28psi 98 pump fuel.
372kw atw @ 28psi E85 Flexfuel.
EVOLVED AWD COUPE
WWW.EVOCOUPE.NET
330kw atw @ 28psi 98 pump fuel.
372kw atw @ 28psi E85 Flexfuel.
EVOLVED AWD COUPE
WWW.EVOCOUPE.NET
#4
Posted 26 November 2011 - 11:45 PM
I read about this months ago. The ideas presented are good but have been decided by the wrong people. The board who decided the rules / laws should have been engineers with years and years of experience under their belts and possibly people involved in motor sport at a high level ie; formula 1, Super Cars and so forth.
From my view, this scheme is well aligned with speed cameras. Its not there to save lives, its there to make money. And make money it will. For us persons who can not afford a nice new car and enjoy our modified older vehicles it will mean the prospect of buying a $1,000 car to drive around, and it being "So Much Safer" than our modified vehicles (Note sarcasm).
Its a mockery of the people, this is now a dictatorship opposed to a free country.
See how this goes. shame really..
From my view, this scheme is well aligned with speed cameras. Its not there to save lives, its there to make money. And make money it will. For us persons who can not afford a nice new car and enjoy our modified older vehicles it will mean the prospect of buying a $1,000 car to drive around, and it being "So Much Safer" than our modified vehicles (Note sarcasm).
Its a mockery of the people, this is now a dictatorship opposed to a free country.
See how this goes. shame really..
#5
Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:26 AM
I bet the Iraqis had greater freedoms in modifying their cars under Saddam Hussein....is this sh*t for real?? This is beyond a joke now!
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