41 replies to this topic

[doommachine]

Debatable really, apparently clamping force/piston area is similar between VR4 calipers and 3000gt.

AWD magnas use the same 294mm rotor too.

[JayRome]

Jayrome, the benefit of brembos is they're generally stiffer. Love brakes that feel really, really hard. The lexus LS430 calipers are also monobloc which makes them stiff as well, however adapters, meh, I'd much prefer a direct bolt on solution. But then again haven't driven a car with 3000gt brakes so they may well be very stiff. In all honesty that's probably what I will end up with anyway since at least I know that the calipers will work with mitsubishi offset rotors. It's hard to justify plopping down a few hundred dollars to "try out" something else.

The TE knuckle look identical to the earlier ones, the balljoint mounts in the bottom of the steering arm and they (I measured using a piece of metal, hah, I didn't go there with that in mind) seem to be the same overall dimensions, angle and length of steering arm looks the same as well. But of course I don;t physically have one to actually measure properly as of yet. We'll see I guess.

Brembo and Sumitomo calipers are fairly much the same, proper bleeding, stainless brake lines etc will make them stiff as bricks.

GTR's, 200sx, 300ZX, WRX, Mits GTO, and i think a few other cars use the same calipers standard... so pads are as easy to get as Brembo pads...

having driven TMAK (EVO6.5) and my car with GTO calipers.. same feel... its just a tad more responsive on my Galant as it is lighter...

i'm currently on 2nd gen 3000GT/GTO 314mm Rotors..

Edited by JayRome, 08 October 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[evo-gsr]

I've got GTO calipers on my Evo too....one of the best mods I have done. It stops in a big hurry !

[doommachine]

Yeah like I said, its likely I'll end up with 3000gt calipers just because it's easy, but I still have that slight urge to get something weird and try to make it work. I'm sure you can relate Jayrome hahaha...

[JayRome]

Yeah like I said, its likely I'll end up with 3000gt calipers just because it's easy, but I still have that slight urge to get something weird and try to make it work. I'm sure you can relate Jayrome hahaha...

ahahah good call

[doommachine]

Meh the more I look at it the more it looks like 1990's porsche non turbo brembos will fit, I just need to find the dimensions of them.. I tried to get a seller of them on ebay to measure them but his response was "use the internet".. well I have been! Ahaha...

They take a 30mm rotor though? Which is strange as later model units take 24, etc, but still,

[JayRome]

ask Trav... his got a 928 Porsche.... i should also have a 911 manual here somewhere.....

[doommachine]

928 brakes are different as far as I can tell, except the 928S which has huge brakes, but they're very sought after. I think the stock 928 brakes are not brembos? Really what I'm focusing on is the 911/964 non turbo brembos, they're axial mount with 130mm mounting tabs.

Most of the porsche big brake upgrades are radial, and I really want to avoid the use of adapters (legality).

Oh, oh.. I had a thought, but I'm not sure if this is going to work (it probably will I just feel a bit retarded today).

If I can find out the hat height of the 964 rotor, if I measure the galant hub I will be able to work out sort of where the centreline of the caliper is meant to sit.. I'm missing something though (as far as "how can this information be useful")

Edited by doommachine, 12 October 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[doommachine]

Boo looks like I was wrong and the mounting tabs are only around 95 cm. Bah!

Looks like I'll have to re-visit the CTS-V calipers. Oh wells.

[jack be nimble]

dba has a awesome pdf catalogue...it covers all dimensions of discs. the 1995+ 928 has 322mm discs

[doommachine]

Yeah I know, I'm looking into the offset on the CTS-V brembos now.. seems like to be tight-arses americans file off parts of the mounting tab so they can use cheaper rotors.

[jack be nimble]

our requirement in our vsb for adapter plates is that the depth of thread engagement must be the same as the bolt diameter. i would feel comfortable if the same applied to the mounting tabs. i think our caliper bolts are 12mm, so the tabs (may?) be able to be thinned to 12mm without comprimising their strength.

[doommachine]

Pretty sure the CTS-V calipers have a 12mm mounting hole anyway. As far as I can tell it's a direct bolt on fit, with the exception that you have to swap the balance lines and bleeder nipples as theyre set up as a trailing caliper out of the box.

They're meant for a 14" (350?mm rotor), but with a 330mm it looks like you get full pad coverage anyway (exception being someone who modified the mounting tab for some reason).

[doommachine]

Bah I'm a retard about the magna knuckles, I have no idea how I could be SO off. It's the same as the GTO bearing/spline size, after the 4g54 magnas they went to the larger spline size which also has the larger 84mm bearings. Not only does it have a larger inner diameter but it's deeper as well. So the only possible way to adapt them is franken-axles. Bleah.

Edit : Though with that said, the TR/TS manual shows that the early TR's (ie, with the correct spline count) has the same bearing as the VR4 (makes sense), but all models of TR/TS use the same outer joints, a BJ100. The VR4 also uses a birfield joint but I can't find any info on the size.

Regarding the axle itself (that goes into the joint), repcos replacement driveshaft catalogue shows that the VR4 uses a different axle shaft (30 spline vs 26 for the later magnas) to other mitsis, but that doesn't mean the joint isn't the same size. I guess if I hit upullit I can check the outer dimension of the birfield joints?

So now the front TE/TJ magna conversion would consist of the whole hub, knuckle, bearing, and outer CV joint. This of course probably means ABS would need to be deleted, I don't think it will be possible to adapt the VR4 speed sensor to the magna hub at all.

Edited by doommachine, 20 October 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[dafurn]

When your talking birfield joint is that the very end of the drive shaft ie the hub side of the outer cv joint? just trying to get my head around it all.

Are you trying to retain the ABS at all costs?

[doommachine]

Yes, the birfield joint is the joint on the outer axle, ie, it goes into the hub, and the axle goes into it. The stub axle/ joint itself obviously has different spline counts but its possible that even though the internal splines of the specific application joint differs (ie, the part that goes on the axle shaft, and then into the joint), the joint itself is the same and can thus be adapted.

I'd prefer to retain ABS for legalities sake, even though its crap, but of course I'd rather have huge brakes. I think going this direction makes it impossible to retain it, the VR4 abs depending on year is either a 2:1 ration with an 86/43 tooth, or the later models are 43/43. I believe this has something to do with the LSD on later models?

Anyway, if you could get a later model, LSD equipped ABS computer, and swap the front and rear sensors (to get 48 teeth in the back you would need to do the 3000gt rear arm swap, or you could swap in rear hubs from a DSM with 48 teeth.)

This post details the theory behind this - > http://www.galantvr4...&page=8&fpart=1


Anyway, it's likely that I will go with a CTS-V setup so I can retain ABS easily, but I'm trying to work out a more legal way for people to upgrade to evo brembos/3kgt brakes than using an adapter. Those caliper adapters scare me, and really, my personal preference for modifications is to use OEM equipment with minimal actual modification. I just think its cooler if everything bolts up, and you gain an improvement in something without any disadvantage.

Edited by doommachine, 21 October 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[jack be nimble]

I like your thinking, I lke the factory look too.

There is no way that abs will be able to adapt to having different calipers and rotors. the abs may not allow the car to stop as fast

[dafurn]

Yeah I m not keen on adapters and redrilling rear hubs and things. I m basically ready to go with my 5 stud conversion got my front hubs and rear dsm spindles I think the only thing stopping me is finding a five stud rear disc to suit might see if an FTO rear disc works even though its slightly smaller.

As for the front I think for now Im just going to use the 294mm 380 discs and leggy twin pots and see how different they are to my standard twinpots.

My ABS is screwed and been unplugged for ages I ll just leave the rings and everything there just in case I have ever go through Regency so I dont have to pull the hubs off again.

[doommachine]

I like your thinking, I lke the factory look too.

There is no way that abs will be able to adapt to having different calipers and rotors. the abs may not allow the car to stop as fast

From what I've read on the US GVR4 forums it isn't really that big a deal, someone swapped out the master cylinder to a Q45 unit, no difference to ABS function, and most brake upgrades (GTO is a good example) have approximately the same amount of clamping force, just better fade resistance. I dont think GVR4 ABS is particularly advanced? It just un-applies the brakes when there is an appreciable difference in wheel rotational speed? Not 100% on that but I guess I'll find out soon enough. Just have to sort all my shit out ahahah...

Another possibility is doing the 3000gt rear trailing arm conversion (expensive to import though...) which will allow the use of evo brembos, or even the 3kgt rear twin pots. I believe the 3000gt rear ABS rotor is 48 teeth like 2g DSMs, so..

-> The 3000GT master cylinder bolts on
-> use a front 3rd gen magna hub + knuckle + inner axle joint (this includes the 48 tooth ABS ring)
-> Assumption is that steering arm is approximately the same as the VR4, that needs to be measured. I have seen people put the 3000gt front knuckle on magnas, and the result
is about what people say will be the case if you swap a 3000gt knuckle into a DSM.
-> Added bonus is possibly wider suspension mount.. not sure how much wider it is but it might be wide enough such that late model evo struts will bolt on without spacers...
-> frankenstein it to a VR4 front axle ** This is the only part that really needs absolute clarification but I am fairly certain this will be feasible.
-> 3000gt front brake caliper + rotor even
-> rear 3000gt trailing arm + hand brake cable + brakes
-> From what I have read, there is limited info on this, but the shock mounting point is lower.. and the big issue with running evo x shocks is the extra length... I'm seeing a possible solution? Or possibly using 3000gt rear (aftermarket of course..) shocks, as I understand they are only slightly longer than the VR4 shocks... there may be some synergy with doing it in this way. It's a shame there are far less wrecked 3000gt's here than in the US.
-> 2nd gen DSM ABS ECU (48/48 tooth...)

Problem solved?

[jack be nimble]

dunno, you have thought about it way more than me.
but regards the abs. i think it is in the electric pump reapply. with a ABS stop, the wheels lock, the abs backs the pressure off by a specific amount. If things get changed, it maybe backing off by the wrong amount. Lets say it backs off too far- the calipers loose too much pressure and the wheels speed up by more than required. The ABS reapplies too much pressure and the wheels lock too hard.

the master cylinder change will not affect the ABS, what will affect it is missmatched calipers front and rear, non standard disc sizes, wrong tone rings. But, what happens when you put sticky rubber on?
would be awesome to see 2 abs stops, one with sticky rubber and the other with stockys. same speed, same spot of road, same car, just different tyres