15 replies to this topic

[Rumbuck]

Hey guys,

Just out of curiosity, as a few of us in the B'n'S and Ute Scene are starting to do this, what with the new hoon laws, the governments promise to have more traffic police to stamp out hooning, and as a result, more police being put through the Highway Patrol courses with less background knowledge on relevant Vehicle Modification Law and ADR's. Which, incidentally, is something not gone into in enough depth in the course.

One thing I know from dealings with Police, is that, quite often, they only really need to know the CURRENT law and the CURRENT ADR's. As we all know, ADR's change, roadworthiness laws change, so an older car (And remember, some of us in the Ute scene drive cars that can be up to Early 70's, hell, even late 60's) so the ADR's and laws have changed since then.

Also, when you look at it, a lot of you guys are driving cars that are pre-1990, so again, we're looking at a car that is approaching 30 years old.

Plus throw in modifications....

You then have a car that, whilst compliant with it's builds, it's own relevant ADR's, and it's Roadworthiness of it's day, will not pass a "straight out of the school" police officers "inspection" (Some of these are less inspections and more slander and trying to slam you for apparant breaches of supposed laws)

Anyways onto where I was going with this, a lot of us have started printing off the relevant design and manufacture regulations pertinent to our vehicles, any special addenda to the laws that apply to our model (if any) as well as the relevant regulations (or lack thereof) of laws that relate to our vehicles, example:

• The exhaust stacks on my utility:
  
• Are shielded from being touched by someone
• Discharge the exhause more than 300mm rearwards of the most rearward opening to the passenger compartment
• Meet noise regs (At least with the 4G15 they did...)
• Are fully sealed and do not leak exhaust before the discharge point
• etc, etc

And what I mean above my "An lack thereof" is that I have had officers wuote "Under X section of law, under the section of Y where it regards to the Z components, you canot have PQR done to the vehicle"

What this meant for me was a fine for breaches, a yellow sticker, and points off my licence for driving an unroadworthy vehicle, which this police officer also classed as dangerous driving.

A quick duck home and onto the relevant road laws site, showed that the piece of law he was quoting...wait for it....DID NOT EXIST! Under the section he directed me to (And wrote on my fine) it said absolutely NOTHING about the component in question. A quick run into VicRoads the next day with a printout, a fine, and a talk to an inspections officer had the defect off and the fine torn up.

However, this then led to me missing work in order to make the run into VicRoads, and also, I still had to pay a fee to the inspections officer to have a look to make sure I was right (They obviously can't just take my word for it, but $35 is cheaper than the over $400 of fines and god knows what in inspections at the police approved defect station (One single Mechanic in the Wodonga area according to the Senior Sergeant at Wodonga Station) as well as costs of repairs)

After this little experience, the Inspections officer gave me this little pearl of advice, that I should print out relevant regulations, buy myself an A4 Ringbinder Folder from Woolies with a heap of plastic sleeves, and mark every relevant modification and the law pertaining to as a section. He also said, for the sake of neatness sake, even if one piece of law covers more than one modification, make a seperate section for each mod and print the law out twice.

Since then, when being pulled over, Police will sometimes go on the offensive, which can be harder to deal with, but the good ones will ask "What's the go with this...?" and you can pull out your folder, flick to the law, and show them in writing.

Another thing I carry is a tape measure, and a rolly wheel on a stick that the officer can measure (And if he gets his out mine is normally 15-20mm bigger than the police one) for my clearance and measurements to make sure I am compliant with ADR's and laws. Every police officer I have ever had to do this with has been impressed that I have done my research, checked the laws, and can state my case in a clear and calm voice. Which, at the end of the day, makes their jobs easier, makes my life easier, and everyone goes home at the end of the day happy.

Strangely, that police officer that defected me never had any action taken in regards to retraining...so he's still out there guys...

So, do any of you guys carry around a lawbook, or think you may start after reading this?

[Evo-00x]

Yeah its always been the way for many many years. They have just cause to pull any modified car over because you can get done for the littlest of things. Be smart an engineer the car and carry all the books and test results with you. The police have plenty of modified cars not listed as engineer certified to worry about. So unless you have an engineered car with something so blatantly obvious to them that contravenes adr's, they tend to generally accept the certification and let you on your way.

[D3bb4]

...or follow you home, go through every slight detail, and get you got not enough rubber on pedals and no h-pattern on the gear knob...

[Rumbuck]

...or follow you home, go through every slight detail, and get you got not enough rubber on pedals and no h-pattern on the gear knob...

...aftermarket stereo...
...different brand of tyres to what it cameout of factory with...

Honestly, in any of the states, is there any penalty to the Constabulary if they issue a bogus defect?

[Evo-00x]

The Police think in black and white - anything 'not standard' is a modification. Only those modifications reffered to by your state's governing motoring authority as 'owner certified' are permissable.
If its not, your motoring authority and police have the authority to issue your vehicle with a defect notice. It really depends how stringent or loose the inspecting officer wants to be when they pull you over.
Treat them with respect, plead ignorance, ask for a warning and that you'll get it sorted straight away. You may find they will be fair and let you go with a warning.
If you were doing silly things in their eyes and it was the reason for pulling you over, and/or you do not show them respect, then chances are they will not be so kind.

* A replacement stereo is an owner certified modification - provided that it does not have a TV screen in a position where the driver can see it whilst driving the vehicle.
* The Brand of replacement tyres are an owner certified modification - provided the size, load and speed ratings of the tyres match those listed on the vehicle's tyre placard.

An Engineer's certification basically wipes the oem slate clean up to a point as the mods still need to comply with relevant over-ruling ADR and DECC laws otherwise the certification is bogus.
When properly cerified the cerficate then becomes the benchmark for appraisal by inspecting officers.
If you have obvious mods like wheels, tyres, engines, steering wheels, exhaust, suspension etc that do not fall under the 'owner certified' umbrella, then your car will be an obvious target for the authorities to defect.
The Police have and always will continue to be a thorn in the side of vehicle modifiers. If you do it the right way you should have minimal problems. When we stamp out the minority giving the rest of us a bad name, then maybe the Police wont be as vigilant to get modified cars off the road.

Even though I dont agree with all the things they may defect people for (non safety related items in particular), I have seen a lot in my time to quietly thank God that the authorities continue to inspect and defect those modified vehicles which I wouldnt piss on if they were on fire, plus fine the idiots behind the steering wheels of those cars too. We all know someone, possibly a mate, who's a dikhead behind the wheel and drives an unsafe modified car. You cant tell me that deep down inside when you hear that they were pulled over, fined or lost their license, that you didnt breathe a sigh of relief because if they didnt end killing themselves they probably would have ended up killing somebody else.

[Rumbuck]

Yeah true mate, I do understand that. However, I do know of people that have still had to pay fines, as, once a fine is issued, they then need to taker a bogus fine to court, and pay the expenses, when they have done nothing wrong.

Eg:

• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - No seatbelts in an EH Holden
• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - "Removal" of Airbags in a VR Commodore...that didn't come out of the factory with Airbags
• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - ADR Compliant 5 Post Bullbar, with Certification Plate "This Bullbar is compliant with all requirements of ADR xyz12/3456", in this case the officer didn't even look up the relevant ADR and slapped a Defect on, you can't tell me officers will know measurements and angles in an ADR off the top of their heads
• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - Too loud an exhaust...without a valid test...a test on the side of a freeway in peak hour traffic with the microphone next to the exhaust tip is not a valid test
• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - Obstruction of Vision...from a Stock STi Hood Scoop on an STi WRX
• Defect - Unroadworthy Vehicle - Too Low - From OEM Mudflaps being 70mm from the ground

In all these cases, the people involved got the defects lifted from simply driving into the inspection stations and showing the piece of paper with the defect, and normally having the inspectors laugh.

They still had to pay the fines, despite never even having a defective, unsafe, or unroadworthy vehicle.

Personally, I think that if police issue you with a defect, and you take photos, measurements, all timestamped and such, showing the police defecting you, and then you take the same vehicle, unaltered into an inspection station, and it passes, you should automatically have the fines overturned and some form of internal action taken against the police officer, who is obviously incompetant.

I once had a police officer try and tell me that my alternator (On a 1993 Holden Barina (Rebadged Suzuki Swift) Piece of Crap) was a belt driven Supercharger, and that, as a P-Plate Holder, I was now considered to be on a suspended licence, my vehicle was to be towed, and I was to be fined for driving a restricted vehicle without authorisation. I did however ask for a second opinion from another officer, and the Senior Constable who pulled me over, called in the other nearby highway patrol car, which was driven by a Senior Sergeant from another Police Station, who politely pulled out his phone and used google images to "educate" the constable on Alternators before apologising to me and sending me off.

Now honestly, would I have had any grounds for some form of compensation from the bastardisation from the police in that instant? I mean, I really don't care if it was late friday night and the previous 3 friday nights in the same area, there had been fatal accidents involving P-Platers, Alcohol, and Speed. At the end of the day, you pulled me over for a breath test, which I passed, if I have done nothing wrong, why invent shit??

[Evo-00x]

lol @ alternator = supercharger.
Mate I know there's officers out there that have no fkn clue what they are looking at. Unfortunately, the Police 'do' seem untouchable unless you can get some political push behind you. The ACMC has the support of a parliamentary representative and team of industry professionals to consult with the Roads & Maritime Services and NSW Police Force on behalf of the general public/ enthusiast. Its a slow process but at least they authorities know that theyve pushed too far and we have now pushed back with political support, legal and industry representatives to speak on our behalf. Its going to be a slow process but at least we are all communicating with eachother and making small steps towards a brighter future for the modified car scene. Theres been talks with the NSW RMS about special registrations for modified vehicles and keeping log books with minimum km per year usage etc. Ideas are being spit-balled and they will eventually lead to some sort of action for the benefit of our community.

All I can probably suggest is if you do get pulled over by a Constable and have them try to issue you with a bogus defect notice, ask them politely for their name, badge number, station location or local area command, and if they have had the appropriate training for identifiying modifications to light motor vehicles and issueing defect notices? Let them know that you clearly believe the defect notice to be bogus and that you will be formally making a complaint to say: http://www.police.ns..._police_officer . Let them know that this incident will go on record and that you will be making enquiries via complaint to the Senior Sergeant of their station to verify their training regime. Throw in that if you are dissatisfied with the cooperation of the station, that you will escalate the complaint to the Ombudsman or the Police Integrity Commission. The more people whom complain the more inclined these cowboys, who probably have been getting away with it for a while, will have to answer to their superiors and hopefully they'll become more reluctant to continue being a c*nt for no reason other than a power trip. There's good and bad Police. The bad ones do step out of line and get weeded out over time.

[Gooch]

haha I once had a police officer draw me a picture on how an exhaust worked .. took him over an hour to explain what it was and how the muffler worked. He still gave me a fine and asked me to go see the EPA for a test. But his knowledge of VR4's was pretty good and his knowledge of exhausts was amazing lol! good idea with the mods might look at doing that.

Cheers.

[Rumbuck]

most police get minimal training on what stock and generic aftermarket setups look like on most generic models. falcons, commodores, lancers, the basic common models that the hoon community dabble in. they generically cannot tell between a $500 full turbo kit from Korea that a p-plater purchased off ebay and installed in the shed, and a few thousand dollar setup that an enthusiast has had purchased and installed at a reputable dealer.

[jack be nimble]

I have had a few runins with police, I had 21 defects before I was 21. I moved town and have been stopped about 5 times since 1992. Lol

They hated me...
And mostly cause of a bad attitude, move elsewhere and blend in a bit and talk nicely to them.

But if you have an air clutch, train horns, spotties on the roof, or leave sparks over bumps and wheels hanging out guards, expect a hard time...

Recently I got away with mirror tint on the mrs car for 6 months. It was so dark, you couldn't see out at night.
Got a warning, pleaded ignorance and pulled it off the next day. No sweat.

[Evo-00x]

Can the police search my vehicle during a random breath test?

Maybe. The police have the power to stop and enter a vehicle in order to arrest or detain someone. They can also stop and search a vehicle if they reasonable suspect that the vehicle contains certain items including unlawful weapons, drugs or stolen property.

This means that if you are stopped for a random breath test, the police should not have the authority to search your vehicle without a warrant unless they can show that they reasonably suspected that you were involved in the commission of a crime in some way.

If the police want to search inside your vehicle and they say that they have a search warrant, ask to see a copy of it and make sure all the details are accurate and complete.

_____________________________________________

The same may apply if you were pulled over for a defect inspection. From what I know is that if you have anything at all that they have witnessed that may give them valid reason to search your interior then they can do it (an electronic boost controller or burnt non genuine cd in open view can be just the trigger they need to search your car!! so be careful). Make it perfectly clear that you DO NOT give consent for them to search the vehicle (will be good if you have a witness or bystander who witnessed the fact). Also ask them what reasonable grounds they have to suspect you of committing a crime to justify the search. A defect/roadworthiness inspection does not provide reasonable grounds to search gloveboxes, consoles, under seats or ripping out mats or carpet without a search warrant.

[slow ute]

I think that unfortunately the police are the ones to do gov co dirt work. With young people dying on the roads they tend to overreact and put in place some laws which are just not workable. The sad fact is more under 25 die from suicide than road crashes but we never ever hear about that in any way or form in the media. Which I think is a tragedy.

If u want a real laugh. Have a look at vic roads site for p plate cars. Some of them are just plane stupid, unless they have revised them.

Some good examples
200 series landcruiser. Not allowed even thou 5 star rated
Any supercharged Mercedes. Not allowed. Most 5 star rated
E39 charger. Allowed
LJ xu1 Torana. Allowed
Turbo charade with a big 70kw. Not allowed

Now I'm not sure about u but I think I would rather my son/daughter driving a late model merc rather than a LJ torrie or charger. There are plenty worth a laugh that's for sure.


And I still laugh at the way the cops test exhausts. I have see. How ADR does them and it baffles me how the police can perform the same test in a completely differnt Manner. I'm pretty confident if u took some new totally standard cars and tested them under the police guide lines they would fail. Current HSV and FPV come to mind.

[oggy]

while the vicroads list for P plater list does have some interesting ones, they had to draw a line somewhere.
And overall, this was probably the simplest way to draw a consistant and easy to enforce line - In most cases I think vicroads have got it close to right.
I am glad I wasn't under the new rules though

the old 125kw per ton rule was good, but too hard to enforce. Plus you had people like me who had a car that was 110kw per ton, but modified to produce around 200kw per ton and was very difficult to tell by inspecting it. Also not very difficult to wind it back down to comply, then back up!
Not allowing petrol turbo/supercharged at all also avoids this possiblity.

Exhaust/loudness defecting is bullshit though. In VIC they don't even have to test you to give you a defect, if the cop thinks its too loud then he can defect and probably EPA you.
You can't have a varex, but new performance cars come standard with effectively the same thing on a closed loop system - ie. auto controlled.

[xjokux]

I have mine all engineered with papers I always carry in the car. Since I've got a CB gsr lancer factory is a 4g61na So I've got engine, brakes, IC, gearbox, seats basically everything i can get engineered is written on paper for approval. Nothing is really stock expect for the chassis itself. I can only really get done for height though I reckon height measurement should be done on a well flat road cause once you have pulled to the curb the center of the car is on the highest point of the road.

Once they seen I've done things by the book they don't really get too involved unless I'm pulled over for something serious. Sounds like a smart idea to carry a lawbook.

[slow ute]

Vic roads was good for a laugh. You can tell it was done by someone with now idea about cars

Qld I think has adopted to 125kw per ton up to a max of 210kw. They had just moved the max up as it didn't include new falcon commonwhore and aurion. I think it also excludes all turbo diesels. Twin turbo v8 landcruiser must be the worse baby killer in the world. Lol

[Rumbuck]

When I was in vic we had a lot of vehicle mechanic p platers, they figured, we can't go forced induction?? righto, so lets port heads, bore cylinders, stroke cranks, change cams, everything internal, with a correctly installed aftermarket ecu to tune, and they were laughing. for blokes that never drove a v8 or decent ricer on l's and p's, to them, it was all the power they needed.

also, a torana with a fully worked 202, minus forced induction, needless to say, goes damn hard. I have driven 308's with power, but this 202 scared me!!

I got away with it though, 200 series twin turbo cruiser, restricted yes, but logically, when my licence code is MRP2, it kinda indicated that I knew how to drive.