21 replies to this topic

[jett]

Ok Guys - I will replacing most of my suspension in the next month and i want to understand how it works and also to make sure I get the right gear first time. I know bugger all about the details of suspension so your knowledge would be appreciated.

I have a CC GLXi Sedan with VR4 conversion- and currently planning on doing the following:

KYB Struts fronts and rear (Front Left - 334098, Front Right - 334097, Rear - 341140) - GSR/EVO size
KYB Rear Shocks
King Low Springs Front - (KCFL-36GSR, Rear - KCRL-37) GSR/EVO size
Adjustable Rear Sway Bar - up to 22mm
Polyurethane Bushes throughout...

Ok I have been told not to bother with a front sway bar --- yes/no why??

I have been told (over the phone) that only the front lower control arm bushes, and the rear trailing arm bushes should need replacing - while when I went for a suspension check at my local shop (Fulcrum) they said basically all of them needed replacing... Like link pin bushes, and panhard rod bushes... I have no idea what these are? replace yes/no why? are there others?

Is there a real advantage to going up to the GSR/EVO size struts/springs... yes/no why? I would have thought that if the spring rates were the same the width wouldn't matter???

Front &/or rear strut braces - worth it yes/no why??

Also - what sort of prices should I expect to pay for the above... I already have a quote for the above so I want to know whats good or not..

Any additional tips/info would be appreciated...

BTW - don't tell me to get coilovers because i won't be doing that. They don't last as long and I don't need adjustable height.. I just want a tight firm ride and the ability to get the FWD power to the blacktop.

Cheers Jez

[Entaran]

King Low Springs Front - (KCFL-36GSR, Rear - KCRL-37) GSR/EVO size
Adjustable Rear Sway Bar - up to 22mm
Polyurethane Bushes throughout...

Ok I have been told not to bother with a front sway bar --- yes/no why??

Front &/or rear strut braces - worth it yes/no why??

Also - what sort of prices should I expect to pay for the above... I already have a quote for the above so I want to know whats good or not..

Any additional tips/info would be appreciated...

BTW - don't tell me to get coilovers because i won't be doing that. They don't last as long and I don't need adjustable height.. I just want a tight firm ride and the ability to get the FWD power to the blacktop.

Cheers Jez

A) No King's. King springs are great for breaking yoru vertebrae and otherwise useless. Try Whiteline or Pedders. Whiteline's not as low, but is a FAR better ride and far better handling.

Whoever told you not to get a front swaybar is an idiot. The front swaybar will help reduce understeer, which in a FWD is absolutely required. If you don't pair it with a rear sway bar you'll be causing MORE understeer. Ideally you want thicker bars at the back by at least 3mm over front to move the car more neutral/over. Or in your case neutral, it's FWD.

C) My VR4 runs urethane bushes everywhere it's possible to get them. It increases the road noise and suspension noise like crazy and creates loud bassy booms through the cabin over bumps etc but the increase in feel over the ... shitful? rubber bushes is tremendous. If you can replace a bush with urethane I would recommend it beyond anything else.

D) Before you fit the strut braces, run swaybars only, then bolt on your strut braces and tell me you don't feel a change Strut braces are there to basicalyl brace your car against flex in the body. When you corner, the side you are turning to will flex INWARDS causing negative camber, and the other side will flex OUTWARDS causing positive camber. This can seriously fuck your handling in circuits/etc and is why people add them because it means you suspension setup stays where it's supposed to instead of flexing all over the place.


Budget for the whole job installed using whiteline parts where possible would be around 2000-2500 depending on how many hours it takes to install the front sway bar. In a vr4 that's 9. In your car I think maybe 3-4, maybe less. KYB shocks alone will be around 600-800 depending if they're adjustable. Springs another 300-400 or so. Strut braces and swaybars will be about 800-900 bucks. Plus labour.

[jett]

Ok cheers - i will look at different springs..

I was quoted $1315 for

2 sets KYB struts
1 set rear KYB shocks
2 sets king low springs
1 set front lower control arm bushes
1 set rear trailing arm bushes
2 sets softer bump stops
1 rear adjustable sway bar

I will install it all myself so labour shouldn't be a problem...

[jett]

Can anyone give me a complete list of suspension bushes that can be replaced with polyurethane... Where could i go to get this list? and the Nolathane or Superpro part numbers....

I have looked at the Nolathane website - they only seem to have the control arm ones and sway bar links...

[mimmo_gsr]

The reason that everyone says not to bother with the front swaybar is that you can't get one for the CC.

I am not sure if the GSR/EVO's have the same front swaybar as the GLXi sedan but i would be more than certain its the same as the GSR one rather than the EVO. Due mainly to the fact the EVO has different end links, which means if you were to fit an EVO front sway then you would also need EVO struts which have a mounting for the swaybar.

Take a look on the Fulcrum website and enter your car details into the form and it will come up with all the superpro bushes that are available for your car. There is less available for a GLXi CC body than a GSR/EVO as the rear ends are different.

www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au/fulcrumCat/

I am thinking about Whiteline springs for my GSR in the next few months too as I have heard the Kings are a touch hard, but I have no hard evidence to back that up. ~$180 a pair.

Your KYB part numbers are correct, I paid $455 in 2003 for a full set, and $180 in 2004 for an 18mm Whiteline/Selbys rear swaybar.

In terms of your Front Lower Control arm bush, try and get the maximum castor/anti lift bushes which are SPF1502XK for Superpro and KCA317A for the Whiteline Brand bush ~$70 maybe.

Another thing to think about is some Camber Bolts, which are Whiteline #KCA414 for the Lancer which are about $40-$50, they are available from Monroe stockists too.

Speak to the guy on this forum who works in parts, he might be able to get them for you slightly cheaper....?

I too am looking into Strut Braces, I got a quote for $200 each here in Perth but Meek has them for $150 each on his site and I have seen 'no brand' stuff go on ebay for around $100. I would prefer Whiteline though or Cusco than no name stuff, just in case its only rice....

The GSR doesn't have a Panhard rod, but the GLXi must have if there are bushes for it. In a VL Common Door for example it bolts the rear solid axle to the chassis via a 'Panhard Rod' which runs left to right across the car. I think the Legnum may have a Panhard rod also as they run a solid rear end. Don't see where it would go in a GLXi though.... got any pics of the underside rear???

These are all average prices, and I know the guy is ripping me off at the moment on the new stuff (Springs, Braces). I am going to go through my mechanic and get them wholesale anyway

It pays to be friends with your mechanic!!

Hope this helps, let us know if you need any more assistance

Mimmo

[jett]

Ok cheers mimmo - when I get the GSR size struts for the front will I be able to attach sway to that? or is it more complicated... Can I get a swaybar mount kit or something to enable a front sway bar to be attached..

[rob323]

Just a thought, if your rear suspension setup uses a panhard rod, and you are going to lower it, it will push the rear axle to one side and may cause one tyre to scrub on the guard (startlets are a pain in the butt for this). You may need an adjustable panhard rod to correct this so the car will track straight.

[mimmo_gsr]

Ok cheers mimmo - when I get the GSR size struts for the front will I be able to attach sway to that? or is it more complicated... Can I get a swaybar mount kit or something to enable a front sway bar to be attached..

Sorry if I was a little vauge with this.

What I was meant to say was the GSR has different struts to the EVO, but the GLXi and the GSR have the same struts.



The GSR swaybar and hence the front swaybar in your GLXi mounts to the lower wishbone via a bolt and 4 bushes/washers as above.



The EVO on the other hand has a long rod with two ball joints on each end, one of which attaches to the Swaybar and the other that attaches to the strut itself. The EVOs also have different lower wishbones, thats why all the EVO bushings are different.

So basically you don't need to do anything special other than get some new bushes for your front swaybar, as if you look at mine they are pretty worn. Thats what 12 years does to them

Like I said before those KYB struts you have part numbers before are Identical to the GSR ones.

Hope this helps

Mimmo

[jett]

Ok sweet - is it worth upgrading to a larger front sway bar??

[mimmo_gsr]

I don't think there is an uprated front swaybar available for the GLXi/GSR/EVO CC body.

I think the general consensus is that its stiff enough already and its best to pay attention to the rear swaybar which is really undersized and needs replacing.

What are you trying to achieve with the handling?

With my GSR I had terrible understeer so I fitted a bigger rear swaybar. This improved it dramatically but it was still a big problem in the wet in a motorkhana.

So I fitted the Castor/Anti Lift Kit and some Camber bolts which seem to have the car driving perfectly. I am yet to test it in a motorkhana but will be doing so in a few weeks.

This coupled with new KYBs but with the stock springs has me a car that drives really well. What I basically have is the 'Handling Pack' from Whiteline with new shocks, and its a massive improvement.

After a proper test I will then decide whether to fit Whiteline Low springs and Front and Rear Strut Braces....but I am sure I will

Mimmo

[jett]

I have significant power (200+kwatfw) with only FWD so I want to be able to get this power to the ground as best i can - especially on launch and out of corners... Basically a tight firm ride and hopefully get rid of the understeer...

At the moment I have all stock gear which is 13 years and 350 000kms old - so anything will be an improvement - but may as well do it properly right...

So basically the consensus is:

KYB struts & shocks (as above)
Whiteline springs
Full polyurethane bushes throughout
Rear sway bar
Front and rear strut braces
Camber bolts
Castor/Anti lift kit??

Should be able to get all that for about $2000 so i'm happy with that...

[mimmo_gsr]

$2000 sounds more than reasonable, I am up to about $1500 without all new bushes!!

FYI,

Camber is the inclination of the wheel from the vertical when viewed from the front. When the top of the wheel leans out you have positive camber, lean in equal?s negative camber.



Caster is the backward or forward tilt of the steering axis. Vehicle manufacturers are aware of the advantages of caster and as each new model is released the amount of caster specified increases. For example, the VB Commodore was released with around ? degrees positive castor; the VT now comes standard with around 9 degrees!



Caster - "When too much caster is never enough"? ? 5 reasons why.

* Maximise tyre contact patch during roll
* Improve turn-in response
* Increase directional stability
* Maximise tyre contact patch during braking and acceleration
* Improved steering feel and self-centre
* Increases dynamic negative camber (on turn)

Castor Vs camber, try castor first. Why?

* Camber doesn?t improve turn-in, positive caster does.
* Camber is not good for tyre wear.
* Camber doesn?t improve directional stability.
* Camber adversely effects braking and acceleration.

Courtesy of the Whiteline Website

Mimmo

[JAP63]

A) No King's. King springs are great for breaking yoru vertebrae and otherwise useless. Try Whiteline or Pedders. Whiteline's not as low, but is a FAR better ride and far better handling.

Whoever told you not to get a front swaybar is an idiot. The front swaybar will help reduce understeer, which in a FWD is absolutely required. If you don't pair it with a rear sway bar you'll be causing MORE understeer. Ideally you want thicker bars at the back by at least 3mm over front to move the car more neutral/over. Or in your case neutral, it's FWD.

Im sorry.But i read this and Had to interveen,i dont mean to be rude but what on earth are you on about?



A) No King's. King springs are great for breaking yoru vertebrae and otherwise useless.

That statement there is What i call ignorant.
Firstly have you ever ridden on King springs?
My guess is your gonna say yes,if so,what combination did you have?,
It must have been a very poor one.King springs if anything will offer the spongiest,most sedate and modest legal heigght spring of anyone..They are shit scared of legalities and have researched their products quite well,if you buy an off the shelf item,it will never Give you a bone jarring/Vertebrae damaging ride..Otherwise no one would buy their shit,theyd be out of business,sorry but i cant agree with u at all with that.
Sure theyre R&D will not match whiteline etc...But a spring is a spring...Coil Diameter,Progression,Coil Rate,and open and closed lenght is what a spring is,its not hard to get it right..I doubt the company would be so useless that every spring they made which is modelled off the Standard spring was so grossly miscalculated that it gave you broken verterbrae.

Secondly
You said
Whoever told you not to get a front swaybar is an idiot. The front swaybar will help reduce understeer

Well...As for the sway bar theory....

You actually tighten up the rear end to reduce the understeer.
Again im nort trying to be rude here..
But.....

What happens when you stiffen the rear end is that the weight that would be transfered from the rear inside wheel to the rear outside wheel is tranferred diagonally to the front outside wheel....ie....More or better chance of the front wheels doing theyre job.

You're right in saying to uprgrade both,as a car with a bias or overly powerfull one end is not desirable,the whole setup will depend on the cars natural setup (How it is aimed from the factory) if the front is tight from factory then maybe upgrade the rear etc..Just remember that if you stiffen the rear end, you will have less warning when you reach the tires limit of adhesion and will have "less warning" before the car oversteers.

Usually,the first thing to do is increase the front grip,relative to the rear,which means a rear bar upgrade.And as you know,The Vr4 is a prone understeerer,so it is a good move.

BTW..As for Pedders,from personal experience i would never deal with them or buy another product from them again.This doesnt mean there are no good pedders stores.But my personal experience of dealing with them is enough to call it quits.Theyre shocks are rebranded Monroe Gas Sensatrac made in taiwan (they were when i last spoke to them),the sensatrac is a unique shock,it actually becomes more shit and useless the further you lower it,due to its valve placement internally,dont buy them.
And if you ever want Pedders Coilovers..call DMS,he makes them anyway,Save yourself oh i dont know,2 grand or so by buying them off him.

Hope this helps.

[Entaran]

[quote name='"JAP63"'][quote name='Entaran'][quote name='jett']
[/quote]Usually,the first thing to do is increase the front grip,relative to the rear,which means a rear bar upgrade.And as you know,The Vr4 is a prone understeerer,so it is a good move.[/quote]

It's a good thing he's talking about a CC Glxi not a VR4.

of course were he talking about a vr4 with only a rear swaybar installed the VR4 wouldn't understeer, it'd power oversteer pretty frequently. Case in point: WRCVR4.

VR4 with BOTH swaybars are extremely neutral. Case in Point: The one I just sold.

[tharaka]

Whoever told you not to get a front swaybar is an idiot. The front swaybar will help reduce understeer

umm.... no?

[87vr4]

t's a good thing he's talking about a CC Glxi not a VR4.

of course were he talking about a vr4 with only a rear swaybar installed the VR4 wouldn't understeer, it'd power oversteer pretty frequently. Case in point: WRCVR4.

VR4 with BOTH swaybars are extremely neutral. Case in Point: The one I just sold.

that made no sence....

is a typo all u can disagree with.. ?


go do some research, stiff front sway bar is a fwd car = massive oversteer, its a lancer, not a vauxhall vectra supertourer 2" off the ground!

king springs are quite adequate for any road/ track application. id like to reccomend to jett not to neglect ur bumpstops when choosing ur suspension setup, esp if ur going low! thyr the bit that'r make ur car either spine compressingly uncomfortable or sweet as !

[jett]

Yeah one place reccommended softer bump stops for the KYB's cause they were too hard. $50 a pair - worth it you reckon??

[87vr4]

as long as theyr not foam shitheaps, that sounds about right.

DO NOT SKIMP ON BUMP STOPS!!! i did & it just ment more suspension pulling apart for me.

& it will mean more jaminz for u if u dont get em straight up!

[Skankyjoe]

Just for interest sake i got a quote from fulcrum for all new poly bushes:

SPF1701-18K FR SWAYBAR MOUNT TO CHASSIS
SPF1714K FR LWR CTRL ARM INNER R BUSH
SPF1715K MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO FRONT LO
SPF1573K PROTON REAR LOWER CONTROL ARM
SPF1700-16K MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO3: REAR S
SPF2027K R OF VEHICLE, FR LAT.ARM LINK
SPF2092BK UNIVERSAL LINK PIN BUSH

It comes to $594 fully installed with front and rear alignment.

[jett]

sh!te thats a fair bit..

The FWD lancers don't have as many bushes as the evo's either - but i'd say the labour is the killer on that quote. As well as the wheel alignment - a 4 wheel alignment is worth $80-$100

I was quoted $148 for all the bushes for my car - SuperPro ones which are the ones that Fulcrum make and use. (from Cheapa Auto Spares)

Although everywhere I go someone tells me a different set of bushes - whether they just call them different things or leave some out i'm not sure. When I actually buy them i'll make sure I get them all - lol

If you can be bothered putting them in yourself - its gonna save you alot of money...