241 replies to this topic

[evo-gsr]

Wow!! What a waste of time and money.....
Has Matthias had this issue with any of his??
What did he have to say on the matter??

[Evo-00x]

Ok, update time.......

 

So after 2x dyno sessions and 6x track days (a total of approx 200km of driving - if that) the standard EVO2 5th gear was destroyed towards the end of the front straight at Winton.

 

This resulted in having to pull the gearbox out and apart to determine the extent of the damage.  Fortunately the shrapnel from the 5th gear had not made its way through the gearbox, but the inspection uncovered something else that was very unexpected and extremely disappointing.

 

I've been asked for feedback on my upgraded EVO2 gearbox, so here it is.

 

The attached images are of the straight cut 3rd and 4th gears that I purchased.  Every tooth is showing signs of pitting and wear and we suspect it's an issue with the hardness of the material used.  This gearbox was run on Redline MT 75W90 gear oil as recommended and has seen no more than 200km of use, but these gears look like they have come out of a car that has done 200,000+ km.

 

I had already replaced this gearbox with a PPG dogbox so I was not relying on having to put this one back in the car to keep driving, but unfortunately I was hoping to sell it, to off-set some of the cash spent on the PPG.

 

Neither Andrew (of CVAP) or myself are comfortable with putting these gears back in the gearbox, bolting it together and selling it to the "next poor sucker" to make it their problem - that's "just NOT cricket!"

 

I've been offered replacement gears at a cost of approx $1200AUD (not including shipping) but cannot justify spending this kind of $$$, plus what it will cost to rebuild the gearbox, to then sell it and walk away with (hopefully) enough to cover what it cost me just to rebuild it a 2nd time!!

 

Not a "Happy-Chappy" at the moment.

 

OH F*CK!!!!      

Mine was delivered the same time as yours but I haven't used mine yet in a gearbox. I knew mine was already built and we had to wait for yours to get done.

I would have originally thought an oil or excessive heat problem too, but you are using the correct oil and if heat was an issue you would see heat discolouration on the bearings and other components.

Plus if 5th let go and debris went through the box you would see debris in the bearings and hubs and sliders and on the synchromesh teeth on 1st and 2nd gear.

That's not only pitting but looks to be some galling as well. 

This is really concerning for anyone who has purchased a Matthias built dog gear set if this happened in under 200km use

Has he had ample opportunity to respond appropriately? And I don't mean by trying to sell you more gears. This basically may come down to the metal composition of the gears as they may be too hard or too soft, because the stock synchromesh gears seemed to come out of it unscathed.

Has he changed the manufacturing process or machinist since he built his original set?  

So many questions.

[ENGINR]

I believe I've given Matthias ample time to respond - he has told me that this failure could be due to using the incorrect oil and not running the gears in for 400km.

 

I used the recommended 75W90 oil, but I can't see how it would be possible to get 400km out of the gears given how they look after approx 200km!  I ran my freshly built engine in by driving it 170km home from where I put it together - so I can't see how a 400km run in on a gearbox is reasonable.

 

It can't be a heat failure - look at the standard gears and components in the pictures - they look fine.

 

I don't hold any ill-will towards Matthias - I do not believe he has knowingly sold faulty products and I think that this failure is due to a material or manufacturing error. I want others to be aware of what they could be in for if they are not careful.

Edited by ENGINR, 30 January 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[Cranked]

Yeah sounds like quite the conundrum. Very disappointed to hear

[Cranked]

Yeah sounds like quite the conundrum. Very disappointed to hear

[EV0300]

Thats no good mate. Fair bit of wear for such a small amount of kms is alarming.

[twicks69]

Alot of it comes down to the material being used for the gears, the heat treatment, and the post-grinding work.  The other variable is the gear oil; I typically don't use anything as thin as 75w90 unless the car is below 400-500HP; 330-370kW.  I would rather use a 75W140 gear oil with higher power levels, as well as higher transmission temperatures.  

 

What was the bearing preloads measured on the shafts at assembly, and what are they at now?

 

The gear tooth profile design will also cause wear patterns like that, with tip loading, galling, pitting, and surface deformation, but again, you need both gears ground after heat treatment to make sure they are meshing properly.

 

 

The results shown in the photos are disappointing as it further appears that a PPG gearset is pretty much the only option for this platform anymore for high quality gears that are profiled properly, heat treated properly, and finish-ground properly.

[Evo-00x]

Looks like we all better start saving up for PPG gearboxes now or go with auto conversions.

Naaa, screw the auto's.... lol

I'm still going to put my spare box together and see how it goes with a different oil. The rest of the gears in mine will still be factory synchromesh, only the 4th gear will be doggy.

I feel deflated for you Shayne. For all intent and purposes they looked the goods and are used in Matthias car, but this has now but a big question mark over their longevity.

[bazeng]

I agree Rob.

Manual= fun and fast.
Auto = consistent and fast.

Don't forget I've heard bad things about PAR but also good things. I've actually experienced good things.

Maybe those gears could be sent back Shayne? See if they can be salvaged or inspected by the manufacturer?

[evo-gsr]

" I've been offered replacement gears at a cost of approx $1200AUD (not including shipping) but cannot justify spending this kind of $$$, plus what it will cost to rebuild the gearbox, to then sell it and walk away with (hopefully) enough to cover what it cost me just to rebuild it a 2nd time!! "

[ENGINR]

With Matthias being a private operator I don't think I really have a leg to stand on. It would have been good if he had of offered me something. I'll see if there's something that can be done to salvage them locally.

[Matthias]

Hey.
You do not have followed the break-in time and did not use the correct oil .
I gave you a good price for a new gearset .
I have explained to you how this damage happened.
More I have not to say

[BMGTZ]

Hey.
You do not have followed the break-in time and did not use the correct oil .
I gave you a good price for a new gearset .
I have explained to you how this damage happened.
More I have not to say

yoda makes gearsets now

[Matthias]

Sorry for my english.

[BMGTZ]

Hey.
You do not have followed the break-in time and did not use the correct oil .
I gave you a good price for a new gearset .
I have explained to you how this damage happened.
More I have not to say

just a question there yoda...do you send a manual with the gearset? does the manual state the break in period? does the manual sate the correct change period for oil changes and grade to be uses. was there a warranty statement issued. Australian consumer law provides consumer rights that may have been infringed in this case champ. Oh....and your post makes me think you are a prick. No wonder you lost the war if you cant make a gearset that lasts more than tis one did

[evo-gsr]

This should get interesting now. ^

 

Top quality customer service.....

[Adrian]

Bahahah

[ENGINR]

WHOA!!! This thread has just gotten a tinyyyyyyy bit off track and is becoming personal. I would appreciate if this stuck to the matter at hand.

I want to keep it purely on topic. I have been offered replacement gears but cannot justify spending the $$$ to rebuild the gearbox to sell it for an amount that will hopefully leave enough left over to make me back what i spent rebuilding it. I am trying to find out if it's possible to salvage the gears locally.

If somebody wants to buy the gearbox from me as is and work out something with Matthias to get replacement gears, or try another option to get it back up to spec, then i would be happy to discuss.


Matthias - never apologise for your english, i would be lucky to know a total of 5 words in a 2nd language and i probably get those wrong when i try to speak them!

[blackvr]

Mmmm... now I'm at a cross roads ! I was about to contact Matthias to have 2 x conversions for mine a and a friends gearbox. I've had a lot to do with straight cut and performance gearboxes. If you hadn't told me anything about the background with ENGINRs failure, I would have said the incorrect oil has been used. I had a similar failure, albeit not a Mitsubishi box, using (manufacturer recommended) a high end full synthetic gear oil. We were given a replacement gear set and I took the advice of a top level, old school open wheeler Race engineer. We had no consequent failures. He had similar experiences with the Formula Holden Hewland gearboxes.... in the end , he used el cheapo "Trac Trans " oil. Put simply, Tractor auto trans oil. Castrol do it as " AgriPlus" now. It has a high level of friction modifiers in it. For the last 20 years, I just haven't had any gear failures , or any marking or pitting.

Straight cut gears do have a high shear load on oil, unlike helically cut gears.

Have the affected gears of ENGINR been hardness tested ? I would be super interested ! The stock gears look great though !!
I have a bit to do with PPG, and luckily they are only 10kms from my shop ! It is very interesting they stopped recommending Redline gear oil and wouldn't honour warranty if it is now used. They recommend the Motul full synthetic Technosynthese. I have to admit, of all the dog boxes I have serviced in the last 3 years, and all using Motul, the gear condition has been faultless....

Wow, I'm not sure what to do now. The PAR gearsets are cheapish compared to PPG, and I am assured by a 3rd party that the quality of these gearsets has improved immensely since production has recommenced in locally, rather than overseas ... Any one with any specific experience ??

[evo-gsr]

WHOA!!! This thread has just gotten a tinyyyyyyy bit off track and is becoming personal. I would appreciate if this stuck to the matter at hand.
I want to keep it purely on topic. I have been offered replacement gears but cannot justify spending the $$$ to rebuild the gearbox to sell it for an amount that will hopefully leave enough left over to make me back what i spent rebuilding it. I am trying to find out if it's possible to salvage the gears locally.
If somebody wants to buy the gearbox from me as is and work out something with Matthias to get replacement gears, or try another option to get it back up to spec, then i would be happy to discuss.
Matthias - never apologise for your english, i would be lucky to know a total of 5 words in a 2nd language and i probably get those wrong when i try to speak them!

I dont see how this section of Brians comment is off topic or personal at all....I think its all valid questions??