Brake Upgrades

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Hypo

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Ok

I have officially run out of performance on the brakes.

I boiled the penrite sin and also destroyed a new set of Pagid pads in 28 laps at QR.

It is time for a upgrade.

The bolt on options is this

http://www.apracing.com/info/produc...o3+-+Front+4+Piston+Kit+CP5200-1066_1673_1053

I am aware of people fitting the GTO Calipers/EVO VI Calipers and someone has fitted GTS Skyline Calipers.

All options will require 17 inch rims which I am reluctant to do but it appears it will be neccessary.

I have been through the posts and I have seen what is what but what is the easiest and most cost efficient option.

If I do mount Brembos etc on the front will I need to run a bias valve or will the fronts significantly overpower the rears?
 
Easiest and most cost effective option would be:

Twin pot calipers - $150
Braided brake lines - $150
Slotted rotors - $200
Performance pads (such as EBC yellow or Project mu equivilent) - $180
Dot 5.1 brake fluid - $50?

(front only)
 
evopwr said:
Easiest and most cost effective option would be:

Twin pot calipers - $150
Braided brake lines - $150
Slotted rotors - $200
Performance pads (such as EBC yellow or Project mu equivilent) - $180
Dot 5.1 brake fluid - $50?

(front only)
Click to expand...


Already have

EVO II Twinpots
RDA Slotted Rotors
Penrite Sin Brake Fluid
Heat shields removed
Inner guards removed
Pagid blue pads.
Braided Lines
 
Fitting Brembos on the front will affect front/rear bias. Evo Brembos also make a horrific squeal with anything remotely close to race pads.

I cannot recommend Carbotech pads enough, if you're hammering the laps out i'd go for the XP10 compound. A good bleed with Motul RBF660 while you're at it too.

www.ctbrakes.com
 
Interesting that your boiling your fluid I'm not 100% that is your problem though.

for eg. My set up
twin spots,
braided lines,
RDA slotted's,
Elig track pads,
Dot 5 fluid,
backing plates removed.

I have raped the brakes chasing a mate with much more powerful late model Evo at Wakefield eg.I had to brake later and harder to keep up 12 laps of hard core sprint laps raping the brakes bigtime and no brake fade, & no fluid boil

Roasted a set of pads but they were on their way out (read: down to the bone) which in theory should generate more heat to boil the fluid but didnt, only started smoking when I came off the track after 1 cool down lap then did a 2km cool down run on the main road but the pedal was still there and was still braking hard & efficiently.(read: felt No effect or loss of brakes at all)

I had always contemplated going bigger Brake set up but definitely was due to the twin spots not holding up or failing completely due to just wanting a Big brake set up nothing more.....but then I would have to change/swap/sell 3 sets of 15" Oz Racing wheels I use.

Going big brake set up means the 15" rims will now be useless, and another 2 sets of 17"Rims I'd have to buy not to mention the 17"tyres are alot dearer than 15"s

Never tried Penrite Sin Brake Fluid or Pagid blue pads. So cant comment on their efficiency.

What the
Pagid Blue's Operating / heat temp range?

& Penrite Sin Brake Fluid Operating / heat temp range?
 
Penrite Sin has the following properties.

Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (dry), oC (minimum) 310 (600F)
Equilibrium Reflux Boiling Point (wet), oC (typical) 198
Density at 20oC, kg/L 1.069
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
at 100oC 2.60
at -40oC 1650
Colour straw
pH 8.6

The Pagid Brakes

RS 4-2 Blue

Medium friction racing compound with immediate low temperature response. Fading resistance up to 500?C (930?F). The RS 4-2 beds quickly and has a very good modulation (controllability). It is a classic Rally compound and one of the most pad in small single seater. (F3, F-Ford, FBMW, F-Renault Etc.). Popular also in showroom stock racing and club racing. Can be used as a rear pad in combination with a higher friction front pad.

Both of these along with the RDA rotors and Braided lines work fantastically until the last session of the day, I can't continue to chew through pads and rotors as I am doing due to the cost. I understand the cost of moving to 17's and bigger brakes but if I have to change pads and fluids after every event thats $160. The guys with the evo VI's can get 5-6 events from a set of pads and a year out of the rotors.

Attached is a picture of the pads after 28 laps. Next to them is a new rear which I didnt fit. The fronts had the same meat on them.

I am braking to 60-70 km/h from 200+ twice on the circuit.

Braking from 200 + to 140 km/h twice.

I didn't have the issue as much prior to the engine build so it has certainly compounded the issue.
 

Attachments

  • brakes.jpg
    brakes.jpg
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Seriously, give these a go:

Carbotech XP8 (1108)

A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range (200F-1350F+). Carbotech XP8 is the first of our racing compounds. Outstanding initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance, very rotor friendly with 100% non-corrosive dust. Excellent as a front brake pad for lighter ITA, ITB, ITC, SRF, H4, H5, and other cars that weigh less than 2,400lbs. Perfect for novice, intermediate and advanced track day (HPDE) use with any tire, and can still be driven safely to and from the track. There are several vehicles that use XP8 on the street, autocross, and at track day (HPDE) events. Carbotech does NOT recommended XP8 as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. XP8 is also a great rear brake pad for almost any race car (Spec Miata-T1/T2/CMC). XP8 is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.


OR


Carbotech XP10 (1110)

When Carbotech unleashed the XP10 to the general public, and it was an instant success, gathering multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10 is a very high initial bite friction material, with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1650F. Due to the high level of friction and bite, this material is recommended for cars weighing around 2,000lbs or more, not including formula cars and cars with brake bias bars weighing less than 2,000lbs. This is the preferred compound for the front of Spec Miata racers, SSC,SSB, T3, SRF, ITS, ITE, H1,H2, H3, H4, 944 Cup, ST, GS, Factory Five Cobras and many more Grand-Am/ALMS/SCCA/NASA classes. XP10 is also ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers. XP10 still maintains the highly praised release and excellent modulation, rotor friendliness, and 100% non-corrosive dust that have made all Carbotech compounds so successful. XP10 is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.
 
Your issue chewing through pads are the Pads and boiling the fluid try changing to another brand. Eligs I get a whole year + out of them with around 5 track days and around 20km street, well use to! as its been a garage pig for the last 1.5 years

But I also bleed my brake line and put fresh fluid through them every 6months or after every second track day, preventative maintenance :thumbsup: wins again.

The Eligs are a hard pad and you need to get a little heat in them first before relying on them for the first couple of street drives, so maybe your pad choice is way to soft.

I don't have ABS as Its Jspec RS set up in the Lib so not sure weather running abs and doing track days is adding to the cause of your boiling fluid or the transfer of heat soak that particular pad generates to boil your fluid.
 
My brakes get bled after each event. I was meant to run today so the whole system has been flushed and I have put Castrol SRF in instead of the Penrite Sin.

I can have a shot at one more set of pads and try and install some cooling.

So far I have been recommended the above pads and also these.

HAWK DTC 60

High torque with less initial bite than DTC 70. Superior release and torque control characteristics.

Designed for cars with high deceleration rates with or without down force. Recommended for use with DTC 70 when split friction between front and rear axle is desired.
High Temp 200? - 850?C

Suitable for NASCAR, Sports Car/GT and Open Wheeler/Formula
 
Rally guys are restricted to 15" wheels so there is an endless choice of pads available for the twin spots.
Have a look on the Brindabella forum for a current thread about Project Mu pads. There seem to be a lot of top level guys converting over to them, even from Ferodo DS3000's.
Contact Ryan at Racer Industries down the coast (or does Greg from GSL do them now as well).
 
RS4-2 are too soft for full track work. RS19 is what you need with 4-2 on the rear. Cost is shite though.

With my GTS-T 324mm setup my Performance box tells me, while bedding in some cheapie A1RM pads from QFM I was hitting negative 1g.. Headed to the track Saturday and was giving them a bit of a workout, nothing stupid and achieved negative 1.3g from 200kph, lap after lap... This was an even deceleration too, not even trying to brake at maximum effort.. Much more in them if push came to shove. Will lockup a front from 200 if you are stupid enough.. Very good pedal feel too, alot more progression than the on-off feel the 4-2s give... Massive confidence in hitting the brake pedal, unlike what you get from the stockies..

After a hard session they would do nothing but stop, time after time. Temp readings after coming into the pits were anything from 150 deg C in the morning (4 degrees C ambient) to 250 deg C (17 degrees C ambient).

I ran Project Mu, 4-2s and some other rubbish thru my stock 2 potters. Nothing compares to even the A1RMs in the 324 setup..

Rotor wear - there was none; pad wear, marginal.. I would have chopped through of a set of RS4-2s in the same day before..


324mm cost ~ $1300 thats only 3 sets of replacement 4-2s for the front, disregarding rotors!! A1RMs cost $118 shipped
 
I have a set of those AP's - full kit rotors and calipers and all the other bits that go with them.

They are chalk and cheese compaired to the 2 spots mine are 330mm rotors with 4 spot calipers you will need 17" wheels and you will need to shop around as not all 17's will fit the calipers, I still needed a 4mm spacer to make room for them and My 17's have a huge X factor.

But they will not be cheap!! around the tune of 4K

But I can promise they will stop you!

as for fluid try the AP fluid with some decent pads first!

I was running a set of endless track jobbies with newly kitted calipers and rf650 fluid and destroyed a set of new rotors(274mm) in 7000 k's and still got fade.

If your are truly serious get something that was made for the car, (Hi brids are not always the better option.)

Call WRS if you are serious! BTW they come from England !

I'm SEQ if you want a look! (Logan)
 
Its Marty at racer you nee to talk too, but if your keen on PMU go the club racer spec, same compound as the V8s use, I have them all round in mine an they are awesome, if your interested in the PMU's let me know i should be able to get you a pretty good price on them.

I've also got GTO calipers on the front, I havent checked the rear rotor temps since changing to the PMU's in the rear so i'm not 100% sure how the GTO calipers affected bias "Jack of all" posted this for me to read http://www.stoptech....rtioning-valves worth a read
 

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