Forged Motor

[Cranked]

Hey all,

I may very well open a big can of worms here, but here goes.

I recently, well actually not all that recently had a rod spit a great big dirty hole in the side of my block. I was originally running Arias pistons, Eagle rods, etc and making 400whp, which was quick enough for me. I'm pretty certain that my big end failed, as the others that have since come out have some pitting on the rod side. I didn't build this motor so i don't know what the specs are/were, so meh!

So now that my finances are healthy again after reno's I'm keen to get it all back together again. So my next debate is, I have a tidy looking factory bottom end in my garage and was planning on bolting my worked head onto it to see how we go. then again on the other hand I'm thinkin well the motor is half apart already, why not build it. Alas there could be some drama there also, as before I spat this rod, I managed to (within 6 hours of rego, after 2 years off the road :angry: ) get an DECC (EPA) emissions compliance check issued to me, thanks to a F@#kin P plater tailgating me trying to push me to squirt it. Which of course happen to grab the police's attention and I'm the one who gets nailed. (Even though his au falcon ute looked as though it was a destruction derby leftover)

So the drama being that, it might make it difficult to build a motor and put it through emissions before it's run in, Thoughts? I've spoken to Matt at HITMAN and he seems confident he can get me through an IM240, with my mods, save me failing the compliance check, as I've got no hope.

Also, what are people's opinion on good reliable (if 400whp is ever reliable :unsure: ) choices for forged rods, pistons, bearings, specs, clearances? I hear of people tightening up the clearances on the big end and mains, to run a big(ger) boosted motor?

I've had one suggestion to a SCAT/CP piston combo, Arp mains, rod bolts, L19 head studs, Permaseal or Cometic H/G. Girdle on the mains caps, 1.5thou clearance on the big ends, CP's recommended Piston to wall clearances, Mains don't know??
I'm aiming for the 400whp mark again, with a factor of safety as i would like to not be building another motor in a great hurry.

Also what do you think I would be looking at costwise? Machining and parts? (I'll assemble the motor my self, and have a few bits and pieces already) I've been doing quite a bit of poking around on extremepsi.com and the parts don't seem to be all that expensive.

So people's thoughts, opinions, questions, suggestions, comments would be greatly appreciated.

I' not even sure that I've quite conveyed, what I mean but it's a start and we'll go from here. I need to get some motivation going again, come inspire me!!!!

Thanks in advance.

Cheers, Sean

 

[4piknup]

from what i gather, im240 isnt that hard to pass. everything must be in good condition. it is only cruise testing for 240 seconds. keep your cams small and i think you will be fine. and your tune good.
i havent had to do this yet, but ive been reading a bit on it

 

[CYBORG-X]

the bottom end is easy, get rid of oil squirters, 9.4 comp ratio and have the ports on the head filled in and ported... and with the correct mods you'll get 600hp easy....

 

[Cranked]

from what i gather, im240 isnt that hard to pass. everything must be in good condition. it is only cruise testing for 240 seconds. keep your cams small and i think you will be fine. and your tune good.
i havent had to do this yet, but ive been reading a bit on it

Yeah, I've heard it's not all that difficult to pass, and my tuner seems very confident in doing so even with the cams i have. He says that we'll just have to tune it on e85, which will eventually happen (except it's not readily available in my area atm). The car is neat throughout, No leak, squeaks, or otherwise, except the exhaust is very loud, so tha will certainly need to be addressed. Also will shortly be ordering an "Innovate WB o2 sensor" as I need one to link to the "Haltec" for emissions anyway.

Does anyone have any great recommendations for a decent catalytic convertor that will still pas emissions? Hoping to be on the road again before Christmas, hopefully. :blink:

Also does anyone know where i could get the specs for a 400+ whp motor? Or do I just stick to factory clearances? If or more likely when I end up building a new motor, once i get passed emissions.

Cheers, Sean

 

[EVOCPE]

I failed the IM240 twice on a completely standard setup including factory ecu, I only managed to pass by running an aftermarket ecu

PM Rob EVO00X, Matt got his car passed the IM240 with his entire setup, including his 280 cams

 

[Cranked]

Yeah that's who I've been speaking to Matt@Hitman. He's confident and it's probably after having got Rob's Car passed.

 

[philsth]

the bottom end is easy, get rid of oil squirters, 9.4 comp ratio and have the ports on the head filled in and ported... and with the correct mods you'll get 600hp easy....

At the risk of hijacking this thread.
Is the reason for removing the oil squirters to improve oil flow/pressure and is it only done if you have forged pistons?

 

[DOUGMO]

Some people may freak out but my mains are .8 thou and my big ends are 1 thou.(mits suggest 0.8-2 thou from memory)
My piston to bore clearance is 2.5 thou with teflon coated pistons.
I also dont run squirters which will help keep a more constant supply of oil to the crank. I would only do it with forgies.

if its a 7 bolt motor they have a full girdle setup stock.

 

[BYBY5L]

re pistons an rods,
personally je pistons an if money allows carillo rods
otherwise i beams bend before they break so im gunna try that theory an hope to save the block from getting a window

should buy clutz set-up

 

[4piknup]

isnt it the je pistons that have no gudgeon pin offset, so they slap like a bitch at idle/low revs. they might make the noise test hard to pass

 

[milkandoj]

Where to start, im going through this as well.

Maybe start with defining what you want from a piston and what alloy you want to use, as this will play a role in what piston to wall clearance you run because of expansion, based on how much power you intend to make, and if you want to spray NO2 ever.

2618 alloy, Expands more but is more resistant to cracking from detonation. From my reading many people making good number in the US number have said Wiseco 1400HD are arguably then best designed on the market for out cars in this range, lots or material around the pin where the standard wieseco's have been shown to crack around the pin and skirts, but then again there is likely more people using these than any other piston for a 4g63 so your going to get things like that showing up purely because of the number of them out there, the 1400dh does appear to address this problem however. Guess you need to weigh up the weight of the piston against how strong you want it to be as these are a bit heavier than the other options.

4032 alloy, low expansion but more brittle. I'm thinking of it as a good medium between a factory cast piston and a 2618 piston that ill have the idle the car for minutes to let the piston to expand. With this alloy you can use tighter PTW clearance, for me this is a plus as i want to be able to just drive the car, not treat it like a race motor and have to warm it up every time i cruise down the road. Of course it wont thrash it till warm but i don't wan to have to idle it for 10minutes to go the the shops. If your building a w.e thrash toy or race motor this may not be a problem.

Mahle make a good 4032 piston and i found a number of cases people running them and being happy at 6-700whp. I believe this what i will run. They also make a 2618 piston as well, but id only use their 4032 piston, if choose something else if going a 2618 piston.

Then rods you want as light as you can to hold the power you see yourself making. I'm not going to bother with aluminum rods, more for a race motor that get pulled down a lot and inspected. Eagle are light, very well proven and also cheap as a bonus. Otherwise for not much more you can go something like a Manley H beam, but off the top of my head they weigh a bit more. Then there's carillo, pauter, oliver, but unless you building 1000hp specialized motor it doesn't seem necessary to spend close to $1K on rods.

 

[BYBY5L]

^^ yea this dudes pretty on to it, cheers dude
ive only had em in w/e cars so its never phased me, warm em up an theyr sweet,
personally: std pistons for everyday car at 220kw an then the odd track day ya can bump it up to 280-300kw an then retune for street after an then ya dont have the warm up issues
but if ya cars a dedicated w/e warrior then the piston slap should be okay once its warmed up,
an rods are worth gettin as the cost of rods an a block is the same as a set of carillos, thats if the rod doesnt do more damage, which there is a good chance of it doing,

 

[DOUGMO]

if the piston to bore clearance you shouldnt notice hardly any slap. most people are scared to make it too tight but if the run in period is long and careful enough it will be fine

 

[Cranked]

Well this is the piston, or what's left of it. Really wonder why it all failed.

Was trying to add the pic of my block but am having trouble resizing it.

 

[Cranked]

The way things were... And the Aftermath

 

[ONPSI]

Nice window you have there so you only distroyed the block? No head damage?

 

[Cranked]

Nice window you have there so you only distroyed the block? No head damage?

No head damage, Very, very fortunately. Must have let go on the down-stroke and the piston was jammed about halfway down the bore. Only thing obvious that I could see was that the Big ends had some minor pitting in them, howver this may be the result of it all letting go, or the reason for it. It's just... another UNSOLVED MYSTERY. (Cue music)

 

[EIII]

Were they CP's? Not a fan of the taper or the valve pocket design....

I run 9.0:1 Eagle rods / Manley pistons, with teflon coated skirts and crowns, 3.0 thou PTW clearance ( was going to go tighter but meh ).

No slap - quiet as a mouse, ~190 psi accross the board.

 

[Cranked]

Were they CP's? Not a fan of the taper or the valve pocket design....

I run 9.0:1 Eagle rods / Manley pistons, with teflon coated skirts and crowns, 3.0 thou PTW clearance ( was going to go tighter but meh ).

No slap - quiet as a mouse, ~190 psi accross the board.

They were Eagle rods, and Arias pistons. Comp ratio 8.6:1 i believe, but think I'll bump up to 9.0:1 this time round.

At the moment the plan seems to be bolt my worked head onto the stock bottom end (after chatting with tim (brisvr4) a while back and seeing how his car goes) and see how i go through emissions before forking out to build. But keep the suggestions, and opinions coming, I'm like a sponge absorbing all the information :blink: , so I can make a well educated decision come time to build my bottom end up.

Sean

 

[DOUGMO]

is it a 6 or 7 bolt bottom end that you have?