Ideal injector size?

[nonickname]

Finally got the car Roadworthied and registered!....only took a year :lol: Now to get it running to its full potential. I am looking to install some bc 272 cams and upgrade my injectors. My turbo is a gt pumps td05 20g. I would like to run 18psi on a daily basis and give it a bit more when it may be needed. I currently have evo 8 560's but they dont seem to be cutting the mustard. Anything over around 16 pound and it seems to lean out. What I would like to know is what would be the ideal size/ brand of injector for this setup?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DOUGMO]

I have a set of 650cc denso injectors and an upgraded fuel rail availble for $350, just need to swap over
the injector plugs which I have also
I ran them with my 20g and made 270kw with some head room

 

[nonickname]

I have a set of 650cc denso injectors and an upgraded fuel rail availble for $350, just need to swap over
the injector plugs which I have also
I ran them with my 20g and made 270kw with some head room

sounds very tempting......Also the bc 272s are your old ones off phaser. Any chance you feel like fitting and tuning sometime?

 

[brisvr4]

With ecmlink in there you can put pretty much anything up to 2150cc injectors in and have it idle/cruise like stock.
I'd go for the biggest that you can comfortably afford and you will never have to upgrade again.
I run 1450's in mine with E85 and it runs like a dream.

 

[Lister]

Rather than looking at injector sizing straight away, I would be looking at the fuel pressures, filters etc. These are easier to do, and could be more beneficial than fitting parts that aren't required. I was running a 2.3l with a td06-20g, 272 cams, and 560cc injectors from an evo 7 etc. Running 20psi and making over 200kw's atw's on a dyno dynamics dyno. With no leaning out. Once the fuel map was re-written more accurately (i.e for afr's north of 9:1). The power figure climbed to 220kw's. Same car, turbo, mods, boost, timing etc.

 

[nonickname]

Rather than looking at injector sizing straight away, I would be looking at the fuel pressures, filters etc. These are easier to do, and could be more beneficial than fitting parts that aren't required. I was running a 2.3l with a td06-20g, 272 cams, and 560cc injectors from an evo 7 etc. Running 20psi and making over 200kw's atw's on a dyno dynamics dyno. With no leaning out. Once the fuel map was re-written more accurately (i.e for afr's north of 9:1). The power figure climbed to 220kw's. Same car, turbo, mods, boost, timing etc.

I agree and want to do this but for some reason the 560 injectors seem to max out way too early. like im talking anything over 16psi? Im sure tim could confirm this. I thought putting some bigger injectors in would atleast narrow down whatever problem is present, if any after this.

 

[4piknup]

Rather than looking at injector sizing straight away, I would be looking at the fuel pressures, filters etc. These are easier to do, and could be more beneficial than fitting parts that aren't required. I was running a 2.3l with a td06-20g, 272 cams, and 560cc injectors from an evo 7 etc. Running 20psi and making over 200kw's atw's on a dyno dynamics dyno. With no leaning out. Once the fuel map was re-written more accurately (i.e for afr's north of 9:1). The power figure climbed to 220kw's. Same car, turbo, mods, boost, timing etc.

+1
from here it seems 560 will run 230kw, so no point changing injectors if you have less power than this. must be a issue somewhere else. i forget what ecu you run, but you will need to retune to run the bigger injectors as they will add extra fuel everywhere

 

[nonickname]

+1
from here it seems 560 will run 230kw, so no point changing injectors if you have less power than this. must be a issue somewhere else. i forget what ecu you run, but you will need to retune to run the bigger injectors as they will add extra fuel everywhere

Kinda leads me back to sqaure one. I agree with this as i have seen many cars with this exact set up pull the numbers you have mentioned. I can not for the life of me figure out what is holding this motor back. It wants to go but cant. its not slow as such but def not putting out 200kws. feels more like a standard vr4 with boost turned up a bit. Honestly every sensor has been checked out. Nothing is leaking. It has been in a dyno shop for months and not even they could figure it out. I personally blame this Ecmlink setup. no matter what settings i seem to put to, either copying someone elses car with exact same set up or get it tuned with the help of people on the site, its stil not right. I want to go autronic but then get told no point as ecm is the same thing pretty much........not much point having a modified thirsty car that goes nowhere. If i wanted that i would have bought a v8 :angry:

 

[BMGTZ]

post copy of a log....start log...do a couple of good runs through third.

then get it hard on the brake in second at wide open throttle. end log

I have a car here that was doing weird shit ....turned out to be a fuel pump just not keeping up in terms of volume. Had good pressure/ flow at first acceleration an show good afr. but on the second gear change it would lean off....

 

[bazeng]

Night be worth borrowing an aftermarket ecu and see if the same issues occur. Something plug in to make it simple.

 

[iluszn]

Get yourself an LC1 if you don't already have one. I am about to wire mine up so I can fit my ECM Link and tune. Atleast this way you can keep an eye on your a/f.

Apart from obvious things like restrictions on intake, exhaust, cooler and piping.

I had a TD05-20G on a CC Gsr with 2L and VR4 injectors with bosch fuel pump and Malpassi FPR. This setup with a bumped up Fuel Pressure was good for 200kw @ wheels @ 18PSI. So your 560cc injectors should be perfectly fine on 18psi.

If you have not yet. UPgrade your Fuel Pump, Fit a Fuel PRessure Reg.. I believe the factory baseline on a VR4 is 38PSI of fuel pressure, where you may need a base of 43psi of fuel pressure.

 

[nonickname]

post copy of a log....start log...do a couple of good runs through third.

then get it hard on the brake in second at wide open throttle. end log

I have a car here that was doing weird shit ....turned out to be a fuel pump just not keeping up in terms of volume. Had good pressure/ flow at first acceleration an show good afr. but on the second gear change it would lean off....

Im going to get an idle, cruise and wot log today and post up. when you say " hard on the brake in second" do you mean floor it in third to redline then hit the brakes hard then take off in second or hold brake pedal down to load up the motor bigtime? also would a pump thats not keeping up make the comp think the injectors are near the top end of idc? i thought the comp would think the opposite as bugger all fuel would be going through?

 

[nonickname]

Night be worth borrowing an aftermarket ecu and see if the same issues occur. Something plug in to make it simple.

that is on the cards. im just trying to see 100% if the problem maybe mechanical before i do that. i dont know anybody with a apare one lying around. i honestly last week almost rang danny to get the ball rolling with an autronic

 

[BMGTZ]

Im going to get an idle, cruise and wot log today and post up. when you say " hard on the brake in second" do you mean floor it in third to redline then hit the brakes hard then take off in second or hold brake pedal down to load up the motor bigtime? also would a pump thats not keeping up make the comp think the injectors are near the top end of idc? i thought the comp would think the opposite as bugger all fuel would be going through?

just hold in at wot in second to load it up as much as you can safely.......best to have a separate wide band working and someone watching the Afr. ready to yell if she starts to go lean.

make sure you have as many items loggable as you can


regards the IDC, the ecu will only react to what you tell it in the fuel/load maps. If the pump goes off, these ecu wont compensate by raising duty cycle. It would be nice if it had that self learning capability....it would save us all shit loads on tuning. But unfortunately these just arent that complex. Hence my comment above about someone to yell out

 

[nonickname]

just hold in at wot in second to load it up as much as you can safely.......best to have a separate wide band working and someone watching the Afr. ready to yell if she starts to go lean.

make sure you have as many items loggable as you can


regards the IDC, the ecu will only react to what you tell it in the fuel/load maps. If the pump goes off, these ecu wont compensate by raising duty cycle. It would be nice if it had that self learning capability....it would save us all shit loads on tuning. But unfortunately these just arent that complex. Hence my comment above about someone to yell out

ok thanks heaps. I will post them up on ecmlink now. It was a bit hard to go right to redline where i was but i think it gives a good picture of whats going on. I take it up in third 3 or 4 times giving it a rest at various stages to see if fuel needs a chance to build up or not. to be honest it did feel like it pulled harder if you give it a second or two to come back down from say 7k to 5k then boot it again. after that at the end i did what ya said in second. The car is running 17psi on my boost gauge, but jumping between 16-17psi. It has an ebc so it shoudnt be doing that. Anyways if you can, please have a look and see what you think.

Thanks,
Carl

 

[milkandoj]

I had a look at the log. Maf scaling looks in order as and you not knocking its head off, your tune is just soft hence why it feels slow. What intercooler have you got? It should accept a more aggressive tune than it is. Seems to be a bit less efficient than it should be.

Do a boost leak test and also check you bov isn't leaking causing the turbo to work harder. Have you re wired your fuel pump?
Lean your tune out to 10.5 and you injector duty cycles will go down as well. See what the car likes but my car felt stronger with it running richer (~10-10.7) and more timing, than leaner (~11-11.5) and less timing. Leaner than 11: and it didn't want timing and felt much slower.

http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63010

This is what i wrote over there....


So id set the afr on boost to 10.5, and add timing till it knocks.
Looking at the last log where your on boost, the most knock you seeing is 0.7 that's nothing. At the end you have mostly 0.7 and one small peak of 1.1 degree, as was said above your on and off the throttle so much it just the motor heating up so its a bit of knock due to heat soak. Although your coolant temps are not getting overly hot at the end of the log so that doesn't seem like your problem.
What intercooler are you running?

I generally ignore counts of 0.4 -0.7 and keep tuning till i knocks around 2 degree's in the same area then you know that's the limit there. Some people like to go much further but if its retarding anyway you know that's the limit with out making it knock too much, so you can pull it back a degree or two from there.

Basically if it wont take a more aggressive tune you need to look for restrictions, is your intercooler and piping big enough, your dump pipe, throttle body elbow, leaking bov?

 

[BMGTZ]

I would be looking carefully at the upper load areas.....taking out a little fuel first. remember when you think you just need to change one cell...you actually need to make changes to the others around it as well . Doing this will smooth out the map....end effect is smoother running. For example below is a section of max octane map...in one cell 13.1 diagonally close to another at 10.9...a lot more fuel in one hit.

use a wide band with all logs and keep am eye on knock and AFR.....try the top the load table .3 leaner..check afr!





12.5 13.1 13.3 13.6 13.6 13.6 13.9 14.0 14.0 13.3 12.3 11.6 11.3 10.7 10.6 10.4 10.4 10.4
12.2 12.7 12.7 12.7 12.9 13.1 13.6 13.8 13.1 11.9 11.4 11.1 10.9 10.5 10.2 10.1 10.1 10.1
11.9 12.4 12.5 12.5 12.6 12.6 13.1 12.9 11.6 10.9 10.7 10.8 10.1 10.0 10.1 10.1 10.1 10.1
11.6 12.1 12.2 12.4 12.4 12.3 12.8 12.7 11.6 10.4 10.3 10.1 10.1 10.0 10.1 10.1 10.1 10.1
11.3 11.8 11.9 12.1 12.1 12.1 12.5 12.2 10.8 10.2 10.0 10.2 10.1 10.0 10.1 9.9 9.9 9.9
10.8 11.2 11.3 11.5 11.5 11.5 11.9 11.7 11.0 10.1 10.0 10.0 10.1 10.1 10.1 10.1 10.1 10.1
10.3 10.7 10.8 10.9 11.0 11.0 11.3 11.7 10.8 10.2 10.1 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2 10.1 10.1 10.1

 

[BMGTZ]

you can also put another degree of timing ing the low end mid level load table from say 2500 too 3500.

air flow is onlt getting 30 pounds per minute .......that is only 3 pound more that my daughters 4g93 with a 14b. she is running 1.1 bar :blink:

that low figure tells me that she is a bit slow....

 

[nonickname]

you can also put another degree of timing ing the low end mid level load table from say 2500 too 3500.

air flow is onlt getting 30 pounds per minute .......that is only 3 pound more that my daughters 4g93 with a 14b. she is running 1.1 bar :blink:

that low figure tells me that she is a bit slow....

Cheers for that. I actually went back to an evo 8 map as i noticed the only things different with the log i copied was the maf, which is in a much better place now. Also the timing map. The result was smoother but well off the pace to what it was before. I have now gone back to an evo 8 map and it has alot more power and is still smooth cruising around. Ive posted a new log on ecm again. See if im on the right path. Little bit of knock but before i go poking around anymore i want to see if its fuel or timing that needs adjusting this time.

Cheers!

 

[nonickname]

I had a look at the log. Maf scaling looks in order as and you not knocking its head off, your tune is just soft hence why it feels slow. What intercooler have you got? It should accept a more aggressive tune than it is. Seems to be a bit less efficient than it should be.

Do a boost leak test and also check you bov isn't leaking causing the turbo to work harder. Have you re wired your fuel pump?
Lean your tune out to 10.5 and you injector duty cycles will go down as well. See what the car likes but my car felt stronger with it running richer (~10-10.7) and more timing, than leaner (~11-11.5) and less timing. Leaner than 11: and it didn't want timing and felt much slower.

http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63010

This is what i wrote over there....


So id set the afr on boost to 10.5, and add timing till it knocks.
Looking at the last log where your on boost, the most knock you seeing is 0.7 that's nothing. At the end you have mostly 0.7 and one small peak of 1.1 degree, as was said above your on and off the throttle so much it just the motor heating up so its a bit of knock due to heat soak. Although your coolant temps are not getting overly hot at the end of the log so that doesn't seem like your problem.
What intercooler are you running?

I generally ignore counts of 0.4 -0.7 and keep tuning till i knocks around 2 degree's in the same area then you know that's the limit there. Some people like to go much further but if its retarding anyway you know that's the limit with out making it knock too much, so you can pull it back a degree or two from there.

Basically if it wont take a more aggressive tune you need to look for restrictions, is your intercooler and piping big enough, your dump pipe, throttle body elbow, leaking bov?

Cheers for you input. Ive played around a bit and seem to have it sitting at 10.1 on boost. Ive posted a new log on 18psi. Goes alot better now just a bit of knock at times