Nitrous?

[CLuTZ]

ONTARIO

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​

 

[JAP63]

Dre your a legend, Im sure he will really appreciate that..who says this site aint the best!

 

[YellowEvo1]

There are very easy ways of adjusting boost, just know what your doing first, as adjusting the boost incorrectlly will give the same effect as too much untuned NOs, that is, a big bang.

If your running around 1 bar at the momnet, then your up aroundwhere the car is pretty happy anyway, maybe squeeze 18 or so into it, but watch the AFR's, im not sure what ecu you have, but you can do anything you want, with any turbo you want, it all comes down to tune...perhaps a big 16G or 20g might be what your after...do the fullexhaust thing first, then say a good stainless manifold, then maybe an inlet...yo'ull make good power from all of these, even on the s16g you have now...this will put your car into the 12's no worries, and that aint slow...how qwik do u wanna go?

When I opened my ECU the eprom was replaced with one Labled HKS with a bunch a japanese txt on it. From what I kknow i dont have a rev limit no boostcut or speed limter. I would like an extra 50hp to put me sitting around 300hp. I'm not much of a quarter mile guy but being in the lower 12's would be nice I'm ultimatly after one BAD ASS EVO and u know the odd 4wheel smoke show lol.

 

[YellowEvo1]

Thanks for that list and the the advise to go see some DSM experts. I dont know what ur DSM guys are like but most around here and most being the knowledgeable ones, are very arrogant and have this "hate" for RHD drive cars and wont help but that hate is shared with almost all ppl who dont own one here in Manitoba. Most shops will even go as far as raising prices on labour because them being different. Most stuff i can figure out my self with my the help of my Journeyman Mechanic( the guy who i'm an apprentice to).

 

[CLuTZ]

Thanks for that list and the the advise to go see some DSM experts. I dont know what ur DSM guys are like but most around here and most being the knowledgeable ones, are very arrogant and have this "hate" for RHD drive cars and wont help but that hate is shared with almost all ppl who dont own one here in Manitoba. Most shops will even go as far as raising prices on labour because them being different. Most stuff i can figure out my self with my the help of my Journeyman Mechanic( the guy who i'm an apprentice to).

Jeez thats appauling. After all, DSM's are Mitsubishi's. It all started in Japan!

What you should do perhaps is find a guru who loves these cars no matter what form it comes in! Thats what forums like these are good for. Surely you can find someone 'in the know' on the Canadian DSM forum.... Even if you have to travel a little further for some work, it'll be worth it in the long run.

 

[evo201]

so with all the opinions on the terrors of nos who here has actually used it?

I have a wet NX nos kit on my evo and it is great value bang for your bucks for drag racing

lets look at the two trains of thought on getting a bottle vs getting a bigger turbo, cams and ecu.

i dont think to many people would disaggree with me that the early evos should be mid to high 13 sec cars which is plenty fast enough for on the street as lets face it how often would you race and run much past 120kph on the street?
up to that speed the evos are realy quick
so all the extra power will only ever get used at the track

now lets assume that both options have a exhaust upgrade and fuel pump upgrade as both will need it and also that both options are tuned by someone who knows what they are doing

going with the turbo, cams and ecu route
to do it proppery you are probably looking at spending close to 10k
td06 25g/t67-25g turbo or gt3076r minimum 2k
272 cams starting from 1k with cam gears
ecu starting at 2k for somthing decent
then lets add the labour and tuning + the support gear required inc injectors and fpr
you may have added 130-150hp all up
at this price you will still be running factory bottom end
if you build a bottom end you will adding 6k to the price and it will maybe add another 20hp due to the engine being fresh.
the advantages are the car will be making great power and will be running strong
the down sides will be that
the fuel consumption will be up,
the drivability will be changed,
the power delivery will be further up in the rev range
the car will be louder
this is permanent and will cost minimum 3k to revert to standard if needed
the reliability will be in question from this point on

if you are running in the 13s now standard that is plenty fast enough to see off most cars on the street

now lets look at a good wet nos kit
due to the nature of the wet kit you wont need to upgrade your injectors to keep up with the fuel supply needs
if you go with a single fogger kit you will be looking at about 2k and will be able to jet it up to 150hp with some kits running as high as 250hp capability (like mine but that kit is 4k worth)
if you go with a direct port kit you will be looking at about 4k and the kit will be cabable of supplying up to 300hp although not on standard internals
on standard internals you will be able to jet it to 100hp max any more then that and it will be a case of "who knows when it will die" type of deal

the car will probably be faster then the above option due to the fact that you wont have the low end power compromise that you would have with the mechanical option. but you will have the top end power
the advantages are
the fuel consumption will be the same
the drivability will be the same
jetted to 100hp the car will run lo 12s high 11s
the cooling effect the gas has helps stop detonation
you can return the car to standard in hours
the car wont be any louder
the disaddvantages will be
you will have to refill the bottle
the reliability will be in question from 100hp+ point on

 

[CLuTZ]

Realistically, if it was really that durable and reliable, then EVERYONE would be running it.

 

[evo201]

Realistically, if it was really that durable and reliable, then EVERYONE would be running it.

thats the best you can come up with?
unfortunatly not EVERYONE does things the same way other wise we would all be driving the same car done in the same way

the problem is the legality issue,
for some reason people think that "oh no nos is illegal so instead i will put a bigger turbo and after market computer, cams all the other shit on the car to make the power..." unfortunatly that is illegal all the time... no emmissions = illegal
at least with the nos you can remove the bottle and only fit it at the track and keep the car legal

you would only use the gas for maybe 2% of the time that you own/drive the car and that would be at the track

ask your self how offten do you use wide open throttle for more then 2 gears?
use anymore then that and you will have cop attention no matter whats under the bonnet

so for best bang for your bucks nos wins hands down
as you may know, nos is tuned by jet sizes jet Y for fuel and jet Z for the gas will give you X ammount of power
that is a given, stick the car on any dyno anywhere and jet it to the desired ammount and run it with out the gas and then again with it and you will get the power gain simple
and with the turbo cars you get the added intercooler effect so often your 50hp jets will net you 75hp extra

the turbo, cams and computer option comes down to all sorts of variable factors of all the items being
A tuned correctly and
B working together
how much trial and error and how much money could it cost the car owner if the turbo trim isnt suitable for the cam selection?
but then again we where talking about standard motors so how much extra strain does it put on the motor when the new turbos efficiency range turns out to be around the 22-25psi mark and the new cams make good power from 4000-8500rpm (1500rpm beyond the safe engine speed range for the factory internals) then lets add the massive increase in cylinder pressure at those higher engine speeds and then try and tune the new computer for all its rev and load points only to find that we cant actually tune to in the top end because it is running out of fuel (more money please)


both options for power production are illegal but at least with the nos the compromise is only when you want all that extra power.
if you just want to drive to work you still have your factory cold start, idle, part throttle response etc

as for your durable and reliable comment the nos will add no more strain to the motor then shoving 20psi down its guts from a big turbo and computer package

like i said on 2 motors all being equal both running standard internals the reliability difference between the nos and the big turbo, cams and computer option. think about it
the mechanical changes are perminant 100% of the time
so every time you drive to the servo for fuel you are straining the motor
the nos option is only when you turn the bottle on

so although your above arrgument is obviously what EVERYONE does that doesnt mean it is the only way to do it... just typical forum BS that turns most people off using it due to horror storys from people who have never used it.

and as was pointed out earlier in this thread it seems to be the trend to turn to the gas after everything else is done and you cant make anymore power.
but once again think about it, by the time that has happened you already have a tuned to the nuts engine with no room left for any error. you add 100hp worth of nos and suddenly those expensive after market rods just cant handle the cylinder pressure and they bend like banana's.... then what do we get more horror storys on the internet about how unreliable and evil nos is

the smart way to do it is to add the nos early on in the cars build
enjoy the power it makes jet it right and make sure it is all ok on a dyno,
due to the nature of a nos install as i have already said you will only use it when you are giving the car its all, so the motor longevity is more so then doing the other stuff first
make sure the motor can breathe, exhaust and intake then add the gas
then when the motor dies (just as it would if you had done a bigger turbo and more boost) build it strong and then add the turbo and cams and computer and all the other gear all at that point.
but i know that is not the way that EVERYONE does it

 

[JAP63]

Troy, you make a few good points,

You do sound experienced with the NOS setup, but i think the anlgle that yellow evo1 was taking was that he wanted qwik power upgrades as a cheap and easy method. The amount of info you have outlined proves that a fully fledged NOS setup is far from being cheap and basic, infact, consider the NOS to be a removable "bigger" turbo, it just adds air...but in saying that, its not a mechanical device and whether you agree or not, it does have the ability to melt the shit out of engines from mishaps easier than the "next size up turbo", puffing a few more pounds, its a volatile mix of chemical that react in the chamber with extra fuel. Its a horror story if it aint done right.

Think about it
the mechanical changes are perminant 100% of the time
so every time you drive to the servo for fuel you are straining the motor

I dont get this, maybe you meant something else but i missed the point? Strain or maybe a better word is stress, is only really apparent when the engine is on full noise...in both cases, (nos or big turbo) the stress is only seen at full noise...you can baby a big turbo'd/tuned engine around and not shorten its life, its no biggie to do so.

Just typical forum BS that turns most people off using it due to horror storys from people who have never used it.

Without being rude, I really think youll find that people around these parts make pretty informed posts that are generally through experience and logic thoughts....Dre is more or less saying, its easier just to do a few small upgrades, as is Baz, and as am I...

You add 100hp worth of nos and suddenly those expensive after market rods just cant handle the cylinder pressure and they bend like banana's.... then what do we get more horror storys on the internet about how unreliable and evil nos is

Again, this highlights what I was saying about goons pushing their engine too hard, in the above scenario, no one even needs to add the NOS, which in turn brings me back to my initial point, its a power chasing bandaid.

The smart way to do it is to add the nos early on in the cars build
enjoy the power it makes jet it right and make sure it is all ok on a dyno,

To me this just means its gotta be re-jetted and tuned later numerous times for when you make more engine changes, turbo's etc...


Call me old skool, but im just not the biggest fan of it, though I'll still appreciate those who research it, run it, and see good gains from it, i guess its just not my No. 1 upgrade.

 

[Dean]

Dude, your forgetting the main points.
1. This is a street car.
2. This guy has little experience with evo's, let alone Nos.
3. Its quite expensive to just "throw" a bottle in.
4. It's use is limited.
5. It can't be used all the time, unlike a Turbo upgrade.

You make some great points, i admire your extensive discussion and research, however, you obviously know these cars inside out, whereas its not as easy as that.

 

[evo201]

Troy, you make a few good points,

You do sound experienced with the NOS setup, but i think the anlgle that yellow evo1 was taking was that he wanted qwik power upgrades as a cheap and easy method. The amount of info you have outlined proves that a fully fledged NOS setup is far from being cheap and basic, infact, consider the NOS to be a removable "bigger" turbo, it just adds air...but in saying that, its not a mechanical device and whether you agree or not, it does have the ability to melt the shit out of engines from mishaps easier than the "next size up turbo", puffing a few more pounds, its a volatile mix of chemical that react in the chamber with extra fuel. Its a horror story if it aint done right..

that is the point nos is a cheap method to increase power but just like "a few more pounds" you need self control
but unlike a boost controller you cant just wind up the boost, you have to remove the fogger and add the correct jets for more power, and unlike the boost controller the fuel jet will add the extra fuel needed, somthing "a few more pounds wont" also to make an aditional 50hp you would need to run about 8psi more and at that boost level you will have problems with detonation smashing ring lands
why is it detonating? not enough fuel... the nos system wont have that problem

I dont get this, maybe you meant something else but i missed the point? Strain or maybe a better word is stress, is only really apparent when the engine is on full noise...in both cases, (nos or big turbo) the stress is only seen at full noise...you can baby a big turbo'd/tuned engine around and not shorten its life, its no biggie to do so..

no i mean exactly what i said
the bigger turbo is constant so are the cams and the new computer, the different fueling to the standard motor, the different airflow charecteristic and charge air temprature, the last one being the killer of most motors due to it bringing detonation on early due to the I/C not being able to keep up with the cooler requirments
with the gas it is only when you have the bottle turned on and are at wide open throttle. and when you are at that level the factory internals are dealing with exactly the operating ranges and speeds they where built to handle
the nos is a higher % of oxegen over normal air, that is how it makes the power, and when you add the freezing nature of the intake when on the gas it will keep detonation at bay

Without being rude, I really think youll find that people around these parts make pretty informed posts that are generally through experience and logic thoughts....Dre is more or less saying, its easier just to do a few small upgrades, as is Baz, and as am I....

wasnt being specific to this forum although it has its share, most forums are full of know it alls with only opinions about things they have never used or even seen used.
most peope associate the use of nos with the floor pan falling out of the car (fast and furious style)
unfortuantly those people only have 1 thing to offer the car comunity and that is a high typing speed. I was not directing that at just this forum but all

Again, this highlights what I was saying about goons pushing their engine too hard, in the above scenario, no one even needs to add the NOS, which in turn brings me back to my initial point, its a power chasing bandaid..

this is the point you are missing as do most, it is not a bandaid power fix, it is a legitemate option for power production whilst still keeping the drivability of a near standard car

I would rather build my motor strong to handle the gas, and use a smaller turbo. that way you jet it to supply 200 additional hp but dont have to contend with the lag and other associatied problems of putting a gt37r on the car and making the car only good for full revs launches.

imagine the horror of loosing a evos ability to run through the mountains and scare the shit out of ducatis and gtr's all so you can beat them at the drag strip

To me this just means its gotta be re-jetted and tuned later numerous times for when you make more engine changes, turbo's etc....

no unlike a computer it doesnt have to be rejetted every time you make a change, if you want it to make 50hp extra that is what it will make, everytime you use it
that is due to the jetting. as i said jet Y is for fuel jet Zis for the nos and you get X result.... everytime no matter the engines efficiencey
the major benifit being that the freezing gas will drop your intake temps on a highly tuned motor

 

[evo201]

Dude, your forgetting the main points.
1. This is a street car.
2. This guy has little experience with evo's, let alone Nos.
3. Its quite expensive to just "throw" a bottle in.
4. It's use is limited.
5. It can't be used all the time, unlike a Turbo upgrade.

You make some great points, i admire your extensive discussion and research, however, you obviously know these cars inside out, whereas its not as easy as that.

1: yeh that is the point keep its street manners
2: nos is universale so you dont need to find the "right combo to make the power" just the righ jets
3: $2k is a lot cheaper then the other options
4: yes its use is very limited but like i said how often do you need more power then a factory evo makes? how often will you use WOT on the road for more then a few seconds? nos is a great track option with out the compromise of making major changes to what are already great little cars.
5: see point 4 as it is the same point you have made only worded differently

 

[CLuTZ]

thats the best you can come up with?

I don't know what you're getting at there

Explain, please.

so although your above arrgument is obviously what EVERYONE does that doesnt mean it is the only way to do it... just typical forum BS that turns most people off using it due to horror storys from people who have never used it.

For starters, this isn't an argument. Its a discussion. You sound a little defensive mate, take a deep breath!

Forum b.s is on boostcruising, not here. We go off experience from others, and what works with these cars and works well. Its a proven recipe. You dont need to spray to gain amazing results from these cars. I'm not saying that spraying is a bad idea! You don't have to jump up and down like a little kid. I am a supporter of using nos. I'm even about to buy a kit for my CYBORG! Go check out gsr-evo-club.net and see how many times I have told the ricers in their N/A FWD lancers with clear tail lights, just to get a bottle instead of paying grands for their 2" exhaust and headers etc to gain them 10hp. I have a friend who pumped a 100 shot through his B18C integra for 18 months before it threw a rod. He only had bolt ons, and boy did this thing fly.

But- please, tell me- if its really that durable and reliable- then why don't car manufacturers stop producing turbocharged cars, and just bring out N/A 'sports' cars on the bottle? Thats right, its all about efficiency.

Look at how many EVO 3 big 16g turbos are still floating around. Not bad for 14 year old turbo!? Thats durability right there. I would love to see a 7-bolt RVR non turbo (like my daily) run 110 shot for 15 years (to get it up to EVO 3 power output) it simply wouldn't happen. See what i'm getting at?

You can't really compare a big turbo/ECU/cams on an EVO to a nos kit. These cars come out standard turbo intercooled (no shit) but upgrading something that comes standard is different to adding an aftermarket piece of gear. Its apples and oranges. Just like adding 20% tolulene to your fuel tank, advancing the timing, and telling everyone its wrong to upgrade your turbo but only use pump fuel? Doesn't really make sense does it.

I can see where you're coming from, but your finer points just aren't correct. Fuel consumption on a properly tuned aftermarket ECU actually gets better than a stock ECU. Thats talking from experience.

BTW, what times have you run with nos in your EVO?

 

[JAP63]

imagine the horror of loosing a evos ability to run through the mountains and scare the shit out of ducatis and gtr's all so you can beat them at the drag strip

The absolute last thing I'd be doing around a mountain pass would be hitting a NOS button.

no i mean exactly what i said
the bigger turbo is constant so are the cams and the new computer, the different fueling to the standard motor, the different airflow charecteristic and charge air temprature, the last one being the killer of most motors due to it bringing detonation on early due to the I/C not being able to keep up with the cooler requirments

The proper intercooler wil take care of this, its been proven and done since jaws was a goldfish.And you make it sound as though a proper tune wouldnt be able to handle the big turbo and its big hot air. Yes the cool NOS charge is a fresh welcomed burst to a hot cylinder, but a good IC and and proper tuning, even maybe some water/methanol all make this point youve made redundant.

With the gas it is only when you have the bottle turned on and are at wide open throttle. and when you are at that level the factory internals are dealing with exactly the operating ranges and speeds they where built to handle

I dont quite get this either, operating speeds.? A big mouthfull of cold nitrous oxide would probably make torque earlier and therefore spin the engine up quicker than a turbo would, especially during low rpm.. I'd say the instant hit NOS gives would be as easily as stressful, if not more when compared to turbo air delivery, especially when compared to the stock turbo.

 

[evo201]

The absolute last thing I'd be doing around a mountain pass would be hitting a NOS button..

you missed my point there, what i was saying was that if you keep the standard set up vs the bigger turbo option then you car will still be a weapon on a mountain pass as you wont have to contend with a power band that doesnt match your gearing.

The proper intercooler wil take care of this, its been proven and done since jaws was a goldfish.And you make it sound as though a proper tune wouldnt be able to handle the big turbo and its big hot air. Yes the cool NOS charge is a fresh welcomed burst to a hot cylinder, but a good IC and and proper tuning, even maybe some water/methanol all make this point youve made redundant..

now hang on here we where talking about only adding turbo/ecu/cams VS nos now you want to add a better intercooler and water meth injection? at least with a nos install you dont have to keep adding more and more gear to match the rest of the set up

I dont quite get this either, operating speeds.? A big mouthfull of cold nitrous oxide would probably make torque earlier and therefore spin the engine up quicker than a turbo would, especially during low rpm.. I'd say the instant hit NOS gives would be as easily as stressful, if not more when compared to turbo air delivery, especially when compared to the stock turbo.

yes it will spin the motor up faster but you wont have to rev it harder and higher like you will if you change the mechanical spec of the car, thus moving the power band to a different rev range with out having a change in gearing to suit the new power band
a standard evos power band from 2800-6800 vs the modified engine 4000-8500 you are running the standard internals 1500rpm higher then they are factory rated at


so let me ask now, how many people here have used nos on there cars?

 

[CLuTZ]

you missed my point there, what i was saying was that if you keep the standard set up vs the bigger turbo option then you car will still be a weapon on a mountain pass as you wont have to contend with a power band that doesnt match your gearing.



now hang on here we where talking about only adding turbo/ecu/cams VS nos now you want to add a better intercooler and water meth injection? at least with a nos install you dont have to keep adding more and more gear to match the rest of the set up



yes it will spin the motor up faster but you wont have to rev it harder and higher like you will if you change the mechanical spec of the car, thus moving the power band to a different rev range with out having a change in gearing to suit the new power band
a standard evos power band from 2800-6800 vs the modified engine 4000-8500 you are running the standard internals 1500rpm higher then they are factory rated at


so let me ask now, how many people here have used nos on there cars?

Is that the best you can come up with?

 

[brisvr4]

 

[brisvr4]

The original poster has his answer now
You may continue as long as it doesn't get nasty!
Speaking of poor taste.....

 

[GVR40]

tim, you always have something constructive to add

 

[evo201]

I don't know what you're getting at there

Explain, please.

what i am getting at is you have stated that nos is a terrible idea yet when someone with real experiance in using it you try to just dismiss it rather then looking at other options. at the end of the day the topic starter asked "who has used nos on a early evo?" yet from what i can tell everyone who said "dont use it" hasnt used it so is only going off second hand info.
the members here claim that "people around these parts make pretty informed posts " but how can they be informed posts if they have no experiance with it

You don't have to jump up and down like a little kid.

I am not jumping up and down like a little kid although i can understand how it is you could jump to that assumption when someone on a forum doesnt agree with you 100%

But- please, tell me- if its really that durable and reliable- then why don't car manufacturers stop producing turbocharged cars, and just bring out N/A 'sports' cars on the bottle? Thats right, its all about efficiency.

nope that is one thing you have very wrong there. its not about efficiency its about marketing, warranty, best over all compromise and reliability. hence the reason that mitsubishi didnt fit a t67-25g to there car and make massive power they fitted the td0516g for the best compromise

You can't really compare a big turbo/ECU/cams on an EVO to a nos kit. .

no i really can and have but that is what the thread was started for, someone asking about "who has used nos on a early evo"

I can see where you're coming from, but your finer points just aren't correct. Fuel consumption on a properly tuned aftermarket ECU actually gets better than a stock ECU. Thats talking from experience.

so are you saying that the fuel consumption on a standard set up with the bottle added will use more fuel then the turbo/cams/ecu option? you are kidding your self there mate
you might be able to make the motor run more efficiently with the aftermarket ecu by leaning out the AFR's
but the reason that the factory tunes them rich is to add a saftey margin.
now this part might confuse some but being more efficient with the new turbo/ecu/cams set up doesnt mean that it will get better fuel consumption then standard. it just means that it used the fuel more efficiently for power production.
that is where the difference between efficency and consumption comes into play but that is a whole other can of worms that will confuse most.

so it would seem that your finer details are simple not correct.

regarding my car
with the standard turbo set up
standard dump pipe
with a cat back exhaust and walbro fuel pump fitted
car also had the clutch upgrade done
in full street trim and only running a 35hp shot the car ran a 12.6 @ 110mph with out the gas it ran 13.7 @100mph running 14psi using a bleed valve

one final detail i would add is i now also have the turbo/cams/ecu done on mine
so before everyone jumps up and down like "little kids" saying that i dont know what i am talking about you can know that i have
td05-20g/264tigh cams/minesvx rom(soon to be replaced with a haltech plug and play ecu or a EMS or LINK) so i have experiance with the other options also