record on stock evo motor
- Thread starter FRANK-E
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i've seen a dyno video of a stock 7-bolt in the states with GT35R on 36psi. made 650atw so corrected that's at least 500-550atw. then on 40+ it went bang. there is also a DSM with 16G in the states that has done a 9...but that's a different story 
(sorry, but i don't see the point of the question?)
(sorry, but i don't see the point of the question?)
FRANK-E said:
I came across this; it's basically a lengthy debate between the EJ20 and 4G63T relating to the strength of standard internals, the power in which it can withstand - the faults and weaknesses. It's as old as the hills but I found it to be a good read...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-210768.html
Ok, I am posting in response to my friends quest to become better knowledged about wrx's and turbo cars in general. He is seriously interested in a rex and started reading and found this. I read the post and saw that some numbers and facts needed to be told to clear up some confusion.
I used to have a 90 gs-t and the three years I had it, I learned damned near everything about these cars after fixing many things. Some due to my fault, other due to age, and some from the car being built weak (1g ecu's caps leaked). I sold the car in october of 01' with over 140k miles on the original long block. The head had never been pulled. I still talk to the guy that bought it. It turns 13.60's @ 104, FWD remember. This is with a 3" exhaust, K&N, fuel pump, shocks, and 17 psi, thats it. I would not call the 4g63 a hunk of junk unless its a 2g motor!!!
Attending a few dsm shootouts helped to gain real knowledge of what a 4g63 can really take. Onto the numbers,
First off there are many variations of the 4g63. In response to ellisz' post, the 4g63 has actually dated back to about 1974. That was the orignal version of the block. But onto more relivant info.
The dsm 4g63 put into the T/E/L had gone through many changes during its 10 year run in the US. The best ones were the 89-91 blocks. They had 6 bolts on the crank, 5 mains, and huge rods. The 89-90 had bigger rods than the 91 , but the 91 motors are still considered big rod motors. The 91's + got a tiny bit more agressive cams, almost unnoticable unless you had a built motor. These motors were and still are capable of holding 530 hp at the crank before you bend a rod. There are many people that have done this and have actually had reliable cars. Jesus riveras early 92 talon awd (460 hp at the wheels, stock big rod shortblock), gary marshs 90 laser(10.4@140+ mph, stock big rod shortblock, built head, blew the motor with a t-66), Eric Hill (10.7 @130's) , many many more. These cars of course did not have the stock turbo, the 14b which is actually capable of high 11's, Leon Reitman did it. www.times.dsm.org
Then in may of 92 dsm changed the motor around. Smaller rods, 7 bolt crank, 3 mains with a girdle, and a different oil filter setup (smaller filter , no more oil cooler in the front) . This motor was still capable but no where near as capable as the big rod motor. Still a good unit though. There were other changes to the car, but the above listed are just the motor changes. People have still gotten very far on this motor, 11's are easy with a good tune and decent driver.
The motor that gets all the bashing is the 2g Motor. From 95-99 there were very few changes. The only changes to the motor came in 97 with the change being the ignition timing was now fixed on the cam. The 95-99's now had a better exhaust manifold but a crappy t-25 turbo.
All the talk about crankwalk has always been up in the air. Some year cars have been more vulnerable over others, some say. Its mostly agreed that the 95's are the safest from crankwalk, but even they do. I know a few people that still got some decent power out of their 2g's and was reliable. Ross Lapkoff put 355hp at the wheels in his talon for a longtime, but eventually nuked the motor. There have been others but I was not much of a 2g guy.
Another thing for the record, shepard runs 9's and has so for about 2 years. Buschur originally owned the maroon car that he has now. Shep is a eagle/chrysler mechanic. The car sports a full interior too. Shep does not use a ford rear end and I dont know that glazar ever did on his 92 because it was not listed on there. Nor does glazar, http://www.extrememotorsports.com/team/seangt.htm . This is his new car, read the fact that they got 780 to the wheels with a 4g63 in the 92 talon awd,
http://www.extrememotorsports.com/team/seangu.htm
David Buschur has finally hit the 7's too. Its on times.dsm.org
I am running out of steam but those are some of the facts I wanted to share with the wrx gang. I am not trying to step on any toes. Just giving some info. I sold my 90 due to "selling out" you could say. Its still something I have interest in, but my priorities have changed, things like buying a house.
Can anyone provide some information about the variations there are in the ej20 in the usdm, jdm, etc. My friend that wants to buy a wrx wants to know the limits of these motors to the fullest extent. I am telling him to just buy the car cause he wont put a big turbo on it anyway and it will be more fun than his GT stang
FRANK-E said:
but the point i was trying to make is that it is impossible to say. at least with any reliability so that people can make decisions regarding the power level. (for example, if someone has made 400kW on a std motor does that mean you will?). i think not. there are so many variables. some motors are just freaks.
and if you have a freak motor then you're entitled to bragging rights, right!
... but for the rest us who are trying to prevent our hard earned money going bang you have to stick with the numbers game.
as an aside the figure you quoted of 230kW would need to be qualified with at least some info. like - is that power running on the track or just quarter mile. what max revs are being used and what tuning set-up, intake temps etc. these factors alone have a huge effect on engine longevity.
cheers
lol
lozza said:but the point i was trying to make is that it is impossible to say. at least with any reliability so that people can make decisions regarding the power level. (for example, if someone has made 400kW on a std motor does that mean you will?). i think not. there are so many variables. some motors are just freaks.
and if you have a freak motor then you're entitled to bragging rights, right!
... but for the rest us who are trying to prevent our hard earned money going bang you have to stick with the numbers game.
as an aside the figure you quoted of 230kW would need to be qualified with at least some info. like - is that power running on the track or just quarter mile. what max revs are being used and what tuning set-up, intake temps etc. these factors alone have a huge effect on engine longevity.
cheers
Its been long discussed that 230kw atw on an EVO engine and around 250-275kw atw on a VR4 engine is the limit for 'safe' (ahem) power and not stressing your stock components excessively. Once you start going over these sorts of figure you're risking something letting go. Most 4G63's now over 15 years old easy have a bit of wear that has never been replaced, ie valvetrain, crank etc. As time and wear goes on your engine is only as good as the weakest link. If the motor is in excellent condition and tune there is no reason why a stock ijnternals and head cant go 300kw atw now and then, but NEVER all the time as heat and rpm are the biggest killers. Its a risk the owner has to take and the 230 EVO and 250-275 VR4 figures are there as a guide just to let people know that if you are approaching these sorts of figures and want to run MORE power MORE OFTEN then its time to consider reliability as number one priority and rebuild with forged internals. Any stock engine pulling over 300kw atw now and then is great and an achievement! but you couldnt run it all the time obviously.
Dean
Member
Rob you talk alotEVO-00X said:
lolDean said:Rob you talk alot
There is no definitive answer therefore you will get heaps of responses and no 'exact' one. Let's talk about definitive answers for a minute. If all 4G63T engines were created equal, and in the same state of wear, using the same timing, fuel, and running same temperatures, oil etc, plus same exhaust system, same turbo, same rpm, same AFR's and same ambient temperature at the time of testing, then maybe, just maybe we could get 2 engines blowing up at the same time lol... But then again you get the freak engines... why is it so that they dont blow up at 320kw atw? F-U-C-K- K-N-O-W-S... its pot luck that not one component at that point in time decided to be the weakest link and let go... you want me to keep going? lol
I can go all day bwahahahaaPlease don't... I have to say, props to Toygsr for posting 315kw's at all four wheels with the standard internals still intact - that's astounding! However, i'd be saving my pennies from here on end in preparation for an internally forged rebuild.
I have to say, props to Toygsr for posting 315kw's at all four wheels with the standard internals still intact - that's astounding! However, i'd be saving my pennies from here on end in preparation for an internally forged rebuild.on a set dyno i will not say what one
i got 240 i then got car tuned else where and made 50more kw on his tune that would make 290kw at all four on stock block and stock turbo at the place i use to goto
but i have to say in one of the HPI mags at work they talk to i think 10 workshops in regards to evos (some shops that have built some quick GSR/EVOs) and it seems they all say 300kw on race fuel on stock block
but from what i have seen on dynos and people i talk to in japan and euro 260 seems to be the going avg
i got 240 i then got car tuned else where and made 50more kw on his tune that would make 290kw at all four on stock block and stock turbo at the place i use to goto
but i have to say in one of the HPI mags at work they talk to i think 10 workshops in regards to evos (some shops that have built some quick GSR/EVOs) and it seems they all say 300kw on race fuel on stock block
but from what i have seen on dynos and people i talk to in japan and euro 260 seems to be the going avg
tenji` said:
At the flywheel, some of the stock evo turbo's will give 290kw's a nudge but the topic of conversation is what level of abuse and power level can a standard engine be likely to withstand with supporting mods (including larger turbine) before failure occurs..
