Setting car up...Lift off oversteer

[JAP63]

After reading this
http://www.whitelineautomotive.com/Other/Car_Kit/CK_LanCC4WD.PDF
and the other discussion on allignment in this section, id like to see what you guys think about an issue I have in my car.

My Evo III experiences a fair amount off throttle off/lift off oversteer, this can be felt when holding a line through a corner, and backing off the throttle, the nose darts in toward the corner, and the rear end wants to leave the road ass first. I have a feeling its the ways these cars behave, as when it was standard, i could feel it doing it then.

My car now is lowered, the control arms are level, the guard to centres ar approx Front-325/330mm Rear 300/305mm.

I had a wheel allignment done, the settings are
Front
#0.5-1.0 deg neg camber
#Zero toe.

Rear
#0.5-1.0 deg neg camber
#Toe in approx 2mm

I have my front shocks set around 25-30% stiffer than the rear, to try and offset this weight shift that leads to the lift off oversteer, the other day through the hills, it was very uncomfortable, and even a few WRX's were all over me, its a really shit feeling, and gives me little faith in pushing the car on corners, and especially above 80K/Phr.

I see that whiteline recommend toe out in the rear (gsr lancer) to help unsettle the rear end. I dont think this would work for me, i think it would make it worse. Bear in mind my standard front caster should be 3 deg 55', which is what the whiteline anti lift kit brings the GSR and E1 up to, this is my understanding, if im wrong, someone pls let me know.




I had a friend speak to someone with a Evo III rally car, his advice for a road/tarmac setup was.
Front
#2-2.5 deg neg camber
#Zero toe.

Rear
#1.0-1.5 deg neg camber
#Toe in approx 2mm
Also with Tyre pressure around 4psi below max pressure stated on tyre sidewall.And a slightly higher (5mm) rear end, ie a positive rake with the nose down a touch.


What do you guys think? Do i have to go to the extent of disconnecting the rear swaybar to stop this? Its only the standard rear bar.... or will upgrading the front swaybar help eliminate this lift off oversteer? Unfortunately , my shocks are only 1 way adjustable, otherwise i could also adjust the rear rebound up to tighten things up and stop weight transfer, though all i can do is adjust bump/rebound at the same time.
Thanks
Jamie.

 

[Craig_CD9A]

What tyre pressures are you running?

 

[Hypo]

I don't notice this at all in my 4g63 4wd Lancer with the Teins. If anything I have a little bit of understeer but that is more llikely my driving and entering the corner to fast.

I have factory sway bars and front and rear strut braces.

I have no idea of my settings but it has been setup by Ken at Accurate Suspension.

 

[JAP63]

I don't notice this at all in my 4g63 4wd Lancer with the Teins. If anything I have a little bit of understeer but that is more llikely my driving and entering the corner to fast.

I have factory sway bars and front and rear strut braces.

I have no idea of my settings but it has been setup by Ken at Accurate Suspension.

Interesting, maybe he has intended this for you, as it is the safer and more driveable option, ive heard good things about them, do you recommend them?
Also, what are your guard to centres Hypo?

What tyre pressures are you running?

Around 36-38 psi ish..

 

[mattrat]

i have no problem of lift of oversteer in the vr4, maybe cos its to heavy, i do get oversteer powering through-out of a corner, mmm 4 bolt

 

[JAP63]

i have no problem of lift of oversteer in the vr4, maybe cos its to heavy, i do get oversteer powering through-out of a corner, mmm 4 bolt

VR4's seem to be a very neutral car to begin with, they tend to understeer before anything....The Evo III is quite a more lively car than my old VR4

 

[milkandoj]

i do get oversteer powering through-out of a corner, mmm 4 bolt

me want!! haha

I got a vr4. Not an evo but im happy with this setup....
Front -1.25 deg camber
+2mm toe

rear
-2deg camber
+2mm toe

Handles alot better then when i had it setup less agressivly. Doesnt understeer much at all now.
I didint want as much toe as he gave as it wears tires quicker. Does feel good though.

If im not on the power it will slide sidways if quite neutrally or back even comes around a bit (4ws i presume). Prett fun. much less understeer.

Though i do get the front wheels spinning up if im on the gas. But thats more due to the front diff and soft stock bushes. And stiffer bushes would prob help that.

If its only understeering when you on the gas look at stiffer bushes ect.
Go through a corner withough mashing it, if its understeering, more camber and toe will help. did on my car!

 

[Craig_CD9A]

I found that my car seemed more settled in corners and when entering corners with less tyre pressure in the rear tyres. I run 32psi front and 28psi rear in 195/55 15s.
Also, the Evo 3 has a 1.5 way LSD, wouldn't this cause the rear to behave in this way when you lift off the gas suddenly?

I don't notice this at all in my 4g63 4wd Lancer with the Teins. If anything I have a little bit of understeer but that is more llikely my driving and entering the corner to fast.

My Evo 1 handles pretty neutral with a Whiteline 22mm rear swaybar, but the front will push wide if I carry too much speed, or get on the gas hard and early.

 

[Hypo]

Interesting, maybe he has intended this for you, as it is the safer and more driveable option, ive heard good things about them, do you recommend them?
Also, what are your guard to centres Hypo?
quote]

Front 335
Rear 315

The car has been setup for maximum handling on the track as it doesn't get driven on the road except for to and from the track.

Maybe yours has been setup wrong or the WRX driver was a superior driver.

I have been going to Ken for years so I like him and his no crap attitude.

 

[JAP63]

Maybe yours has been setup wrong

I have been going to Ken for years so I like him and his no crap attitude.

Thats the thing, it hasnt been setup, its just been lowered and then properly aligned, when i say properly i mean for best tyre wear etc, might have to see if someone who knows more about these cars can look into it, just feels to me like this car has and will always feel this way...its not very reassuring.

 

[JAP63]

Also, the Evo 3 has a 1.5 way LSD, wouldn't this cause the rear to behave in this way when you lift off the gas suddenly?

Is that a rear LSD?...could be a factor.

 

[GSRWRC]

Lift off oversteer is generally due to weight transfer. When you get off the power the nose dives a bit and takes the weight off the rear wheels causing them to lose traction.

Couple of fixes as far as I can see.

A: Driving style adjustment - Try to keep the throttle neutral mid corner to stop the weight lifting from the rear suspension

B: Increase the spring rates in the front.

 

[rob323]

this can be felt when holding a line through a corner, and backing off the throttle, the nose darts in toward the corner, and the rear end wants to leave the road ass first.

You say the rear "wants" to spin around. Does it spin round, or does it just feel like it's going to?

Does it still do it if you left foot brake while cornering?

Wheel alignment setting aren't going to make all that much of a difference. What's the spring rate on the rear shocks?

 

[VR-4Squid]

brake
turn in
gas

sorted.

go into the corner slower if it's blind, that way you won't have to lift off if it tightens up.

 

[JAP63]

You say the rear "wants" to spin around. Does it spin round, or does it just feel like it's going to?

Does it still do it if you left foot brake while cornering?

Wheel alignment setting aren't going to make all that much of a difference. What's the spring rate on the rear shocks?

Well, its funy you say that, last nite i went thru a rounabout , backed off, then planted power coming out and it, i thought the rear may have leaned over, in actual fact it stood out, which felt alot better, my concern is that if the brakes were mashed on mid corner as if something were on the road, or i had to hit them for some reason, then i think it would be a bad situation to be in.

Front Spring rate-7kg, Rear-5kg.

brake
turn in
gas

sorted.

go into the corner slower if it's blind, that way you won't have to lift off if it tightens up.

Understood, but its till not a very comfortable feeling, ive never felt this before really, and every one else seems to be saying there car understeers if anything

 

[Craig_CD9A]

It really does take a while to gain enough confidence to drive an AWD like a early Evo fast through corners I believe, we've got no electronic wizardry fixing up our errors, but in my opinion we are much better off without such aids. Be gentle with all of your controls; turn the wheel as little as possible to clear a corner, and be precise and gentle with your braking and accelerator input, and you will be rewarded if the car has no underlying issues.
Practise, practise and practise some more until you feel comfortable with the car. Go to some motorkhanas and track days armed with sticky tyres and a good braking set-up. If you aren't familiar and confident with your car at its limits then that will be telling in the way the car responds to your inputs.

 

[www.18u]

My old gsr was the Whiteline test car for the "real handling sprecial" for hot 4's. It still suffered from lift oversteer, but ran bigger swaybars. I still remember coming onto the back straight at wakefield behind my mates r33 gtr, and he got a bit out of shape, so i touched the brakes and ended up drifting halfway down the back straight. Would have been better if i meant it

 

[JAP63]

My old gsr was the Whiteline test car for the "real handling sprecial" for hot 4's. It still suffered from lift oversteer, but ran bigger swaybars. I still remember coming onto the back straight at wakefield behind my mates r33 gtr, and he got a bit out of shape, so i touched the brakes and ended up drifting halfway down the back straight. Would have been better if i meant it

Finally, someone who has had the problem....
What do you know about it? apart form its nasty and can hand you a spanking...

What swaybars did your car have?

 

[JAP63]

It really does take a while to gain enough confidence to drive an AWD like a early Evo fast through corners I believe, we've got no electronic wizardry fixing up our errors, but in my opinion we are much better off without such aids. Be gentle with all of your controls; turn the wheel as little as possible to clear a corner, and be precise and gentle with your braking and accelerator input, and you will be rewarded if the car has no underlying issues.
Practise, practise and practise some more until you feel comfortable with the car. Go to some motorkhanas and track days armed with sticky tyres and a good braking set-up. If you aren't familiar and confident with your car at its limits then that will be telling in the way the car responds to your inputs.

I think what your saying there is a big truth, hence why i let no one else drive it!

 

[Craig_CD9A]

My wheel centre to guards are at 350mm front and 340mm rear. Mind you my car is a Evo 1 which had a lower ride height than both the Evo 2 and 3 from the factory. Your ride height figures suggest to me that perhaps your ride height is set a little too low for optimum handling from the Evo 3. Tyres filling guards up looks pretty cool, but lowering a car too much also has the effect of messing up the roll centres on each end of the car. I'm not hugely knowledgeable in suspension settings and geometry but I'd imagine that if the rear is higher than the front, and you compress the front further with weight shifting under hard braking, the rear is going to feel even higher and rear end grip would not be optimised. This is probably OK if your driving style is like that of a rally driver and you like the rear of the car to be loose. With these characteristics combined with lift-off oversteer one way to clear a corner without washing off speed would be to nail the throttle hard with no counter-steer, and pray

I'd leave the swaybars standard but check the swaybar links are in good working order and uprate the bushes to urethane. Have a play around with different ride heights and find the best tyre pressures that work for the front and rear. There is less weight in the rear of our cars so less tyre pressure should allow the rear tyres to work and grip better.