boosting problem
- Thread starter lancerevo92
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lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
i'm using e94 fuel, it has a blend on ethanol to achieve the higher octane, can't get any higher around here, all other places are 91 octane. I talked to the guy at partsource today, he told me it may be the controller, he explained to me how the settings can adjust how and when the boost is applied. I used that knowledge to identify that in 'a' mode if i press the mode button and hold, i get to a screen that says 0.3.0 and the boost seems to be gradual, in 'b' mode the screen said 0.5.0 and the boost almost instantly spikes and overshoots the bar setting. gonna check apexi website for a manual on this. also got vid on the sound from my diff.
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
ok, found the manual, it definitly is the controller causing the problem, if i turn off the boost controller, the factory settings run completly fine, i tried to retrain the controller as specified but i'm a little stumped, if someone could help to read and clarify in lamens terms what they mean please tell me (particulary the presetboost duty settings, yes i have an actuator, and how to teach while driving, like full throttle or part). the manual >> http://www.alltrac.net/manuals/AVC.htm
Ahhh the old Apexi AVCR's
I say stop stuffin around with that controller and buy a newer one
If u want electronic then either buy a Turbosmart Eboost 1 or 2, Apexi AVC-R, HKS EVC 6, GReddy PRofec B Spec 2, Blitz SBC - Spec S, BLITZ SBC i-COLOR, Blitz SBC iD 3 Spec R
Or u could just buy a manual one
I say stop stuffin around with that controller and buy a newer one
If u want electronic then either buy a Turbosmart Eboost 1 or 2, Apexi AVC-R, HKS EVC 6, GReddy PRofec B Spec 2, Blitz SBC - Spec S, BLITZ SBC i-COLOR, Blitz SBC iD 3 Spec R
Or u could just buy a manual one
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
are they really that big of a pain in the butt? i still works, but i know i have to retrain it, but as for the preset boost duty setting, i need a little help on that. for now i just run the stock ecu setting, but i wanna hit the track in a few months and can't really spare the cash to go buy a new controller.
"Normal actuators may range from ~ 0.4-0.8 kg/cm2. The higher the boost level, the lower the duty cycle that is needed to reach the same boost level. As for the actual duty setting, the fundamental rule is if the boost setting is set for 1.00 kg/cm2 and the actuator pressure is 0.4 kg/cm2 the limit is 70% while a 0.8kg/cm2 actuator pressure would denote a 40% limit. Of course if the boost pressure is higher than this the duty limits would be lower and if the boost pressure lower, the duty limit higher."
Do they mean the higher i set the boost, the lower the duty must be set, and the lower the boost, the higher the duty?
if true, than if 'a' mode is preset to 30% and 'b' mode is 50% than 'a' mode is for high boost, and 'b' mode is for low boost? i was doing reverse
"Normal actuators may range from ~ 0.4-0.8 kg/cm2. The higher the boost level, the lower the duty cycle that is needed to reach the same boost level. As for the actual duty setting, the fundamental rule is if the boost setting is set for 1.00 kg/cm2 and the actuator pressure is 0.4 kg/cm2 the limit is 70% while a 0.8kg/cm2 actuator pressure would denote a 40% limit. Of course if the boost pressure is higher than this the duty limits would be lower and if the boost pressure lower, the duty limit higher."
Do they mean the higher i set the boost, the lower the duty must be set, and the lower the boost, the higher the duty?
if true, than if 'a' mode is preset to 30% and 'b' mode is 50% than 'a' mode is for high boost, and 'b' mode is for low boost? i was doing reverse
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
anyone?
yelevo
Member
misfire
Lets forget about the boost controller for a while and rule out some other factors first.
From what you have told me the turbo is spooling and the boost controller is trying to do it's job. You set the controller to 1 bar but the engine stumbles before the preset level.
Where is the missing charge air going? Please check all intercooler hoses I can see by your picture the hose joining cooler pipe to compressor cover is not sitting correctly. Remove the hoses if you need to and look for any holes.
What can happen when you have a leak is the engine will over-fuel. Were the electrodes wet when you removed the plugs?
Lets forget about the boost controller for a while and rule out some other factors first.
From what you have told me the turbo is spooling and the boost controller is trying to do it's job. You set the controller to 1 bar but the engine stumbles before the preset level.
Where is the missing charge air going? Please check all intercooler hoses I can see by your picture the hose joining cooler pipe to compressor cover is not sitting correctly. Remove the hoses if you need to and look for any holes.
What can happen when you have a leak is the engine will over-fuel. Were the electrodes wet when you removed the plugs?
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
like i said, it runs fine if i turn the controller off. let me explain what i figured out, first read this.
"3. PresetBoost Duty Setting
Although this unit uses feedback management and the self learning function to automatically control the boost pressure to the specified setting, the valve driving power duty must stay within a certain limit. Since this limit varies from vehicle to vehicle depending oil engine tuning, it is necessary to set each and every individual vehicle.
3-1 Actuatot Type
Press the SELECT switch for longer than 3 seconds.
Be sure to check that all of the LED'S other than the SUPER AVC-R logo and the digital bar graph have been turned OFF
Once the LED'S are turned off, this shows that the boost control management is OFF making the boost pressure only rise to the factory setting controlled by the factory actuator operation.
Drive the vehicle with the power OFF. At this point, attempt to drive in the gear with the highest load and check the peak boost level.
Normal actuators may range from ~ 0.4-0.8 kg/cm2. The higher the boost level, the lower the duty cycle that is needed to reach the same boost level. As for the actual duty setting, the fundamental rule is if the boost setting is set for 1.00 kg/cm2 and the actuator pressure is 0.4 kg/cm2 the limit is 70% while a 0.8kg/cm2 actuator pressure would denote a 40% limit. Of course if the boost pressure is higher than this the duty limits would be lower and if the boost pressure lower, the duty limit higher.
Using the actual driving data as a base, set the duty setting corresponding to the actual boost pressure.
Press the SELECT switch once again for longer than 3 seconds and turn the power back ON.
Select one of the boost settings A or B.
Press the MODE button for longer than 3 seconds.
If the set boost level is A, then the initial setting will flash 30% (B will flash 50%)
Press the UP/DOWN switch to adjust the duty setting to the necessary levels. ( the duty level settings for A/B range from 20%~90% in 2% increments.)
Press the MODE switch again to set the duty setting.
At this point drive the vehicle again to check the boost level. While in third gear or above if the boost level stabilizes at a point near the specified boost setting the-unit will commence the self learning process to complete the setting.
If the boost level does not rise enough or overshoots ( by over 0.2 k) during step 12 or if the self learning does not start, please reset the duty settings to prevent miscalculations.( return to step 9)
!CAUTION If the boost level does not rise to the specified level even after the duty has been set to 90%, a problem with the turbo may exist. In these cases, please lower the preset boost level.
IMPORTANT * Normally, the set duty level is meant to aid the self learning function according to the corresponding boost level but in vehicles which lose boost at higher RPM's, the duty level may be set to a higher level ( A setting which would normally produce a boost overshooting characteristic) to compensate for the boost drop. As the self learning function progresses, the overshoot will gradually be suppressed. ( Please set vehicles which lose boost due to lack of injector capacity by the normal method.)
3-2 Wastegate Type
IMPORTANT * Wastegate type vehicles do not differ in the duty setting front actuator type vehicles but the amount of boost control which is possible depends upon the type or spring rate used by the wastegate. As far as the duty setting is concerned, please choose a spring rate which allows the maximum boost pressure to be controlled by a 70% duty setting.
Set the desired boost pressure front preset A or B
Set the maximum set boost level at a 70% duty level.
Drive the vehicle and check the boost level. Adjust the wastegate spring or replace the wastegate spring so that the boost level reaches near the specified setting. While in third gear or above if the boost level stabilizes at a point near the specified boost setting the unit will commence the self learning process to complete the setting.
As for the other preset, please set the preset to the same if not a higher boost pressure setting than the one above. Please change the duty level for the new boost pressure as well.
!CAUTION ( Same for actuator and wastegate type) Although this unit has a RPM separate self learning function, vehicles maximizing their injectors by 6200 rpm will not be able to use the self learning function during that period because the unit uses the injector signal to read the engine RPM for the self learning function. In order to have more precise boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade to higher capacity injectors.*
Our company can provide the proper upgrade injectors.
BCNR33/BNR32/RNN14 550cc/min: Y20000/pc (Part number:404-NOO I)
ECR3 3/S 14/#PS 13 440cc/min:Y24000/pc (Part number:404-N002)
IMPORTANT ( Same for actuator and wastegate type)
Changes in either the preset boost pressure or duty level will reset the self learning function.
(Even if the boost pressure was changed and then returned to its previous setting)
As long as the basic requirements are fulfilled, the self learning function will automatically proceed under normal driving conditions. Please follow the steps below to speed up the self learning function process.
Drive the vehicle in as high of a gear as possible in order to get the boost pressure to match the specified boost level at the lowest possible RPM. ( the intercept RPM) ( Running the vehicle from the intercept RPM + 1000 RPM is acceptable.)
Next, run the vehicle in the mid and high RPM of a mid-range gear to match the specified boost level.
Repeating steps I and 2 will speed up the self learning function.
If the boost pressure does not rise properly, please reset the self learning function or check the set boost pressure again.
* Be sure to reset the duty level and repeat the programming sequence from the beginning when modifying either the actuator or wastegate."
So what i did was, started in 'a' mode, set boost to .8 bar, and started boost duty at 40%, in 5th gear at 3000 rpm, floored it. the boost jumped up to .9+ and would'nt stablize, so i turn it down 2%, got a similar result, turned it down another 2% and so on, till i got to 24%. At 24% it built the boost up evenly and spiked only to only .86, i kept doing the 3000 rpm floor it to trian, and it stabilized at .8, happy with this i jumped over to 'b' mode. I set the boost to .9, and duty to 50%, got a similar result as i did will 'a' at the begining, eventually narrowed it down to 44% and had a damn near stablized .9, so i upped the boost to 1 bar, and it began to spike, so instead of playing with this at 1, i went to 1.2 where i want it. I eventually got down to a boost duty of 34% with resonable stability, still spiking a little over 1.2 like 1.26, i gave up on this setting becuase of the speeds i was acheiving, but from this observation i assume boosty duty means how hard in percentage the turbo is working, and my dealer told me the turbo was upgraded, maybe the reason why the duties are so low, essential for good turbo life in racing i presume? if you know more than me on this, drop a line....please.
"3. PresetBoost Duty Setting
Although this unit uses feedback management and the self learning function to automatically control the boost pressure to the specified setting, the valve driving power duty must stay within a certain limit. Since this limit varies from vehicle to vehicle depending oil engine tuning, it is necessary to set each and every individual vehicle.
3-1 Actuatot Type
Press the SELECT switch for longer than 3 seconds.
Be sure to check that all of the LED'S other than the SUPER AVC-R logo and the digital bar graph have been turned OFF
Once the LED'S are turned off, this shows that the boost control management is OFF making the boost pressure only rise to the factory setting controlled by the factory actuator operation.
Drive the vehicle with the power OFF. At this point, attempt to drive in the gear with the highest load and check the peak boost level.
Normal actuators may range from ~ 0.4-0.8 kg/cm2. The higher the boost level, the lower the duty cycle that is needed to reach the same boost level. As for the actual duty setting, the fundamental rule is if the boost setting is set for 1.00 kg/cm2 and the actuator pressure is 0.4 kg/cm2 the limit is 70% while a 0.8kg/cm2 actuator pressure would denote a 40% limit. Of course if the boost pressure is higher than this the duty limits would be lower and if the boost pressure lower, the duty limit higher.
Using the actual driving data as a base, set the duty setting corresponding to the actual boost pressure.
Press the SELECT switch once again for longer than 3 seconds and turn the power back ON.
Select one of the boost settings A or B.
Press the MODE button for longer than 3 seconds.
If the set boost level is A, then the initial setting will flash 30% (B will flash 50%)
Press the UP/DOWN switch to adjust the duty setting to the necessary levels. ( the duty level settings for A/B range from 20%~90% in 2% increments.)
Press the MODE switch again to set the duty setting.
At this point drive the vehicle again to check the boost level. While in third gear or above if the boost level stabilizes at a point near the specified boost setting the-unit will commence the self learning process to complete the setting.
If the boost level does not rise enough or overshoots ( by over 0.2 k) during step 12 or if the self learning does not start, please reset the duty settings to prevent miscalculations.( return to step 9)
!CAUTION If the boost level does not rise to the specified level even after the duty has been set to 90%, a problem with the turbo may exist. In these cases, please lower the preset boost level.
IMPORTANT * Normally, the set duty level is meant to aid the self learning function according to the corresponding boost level but in vehicles which lose boost at higher RPM's, the duty level may be set to a higher level ( A setting which would normally produce a boost overshooting characteristic) to compensate for the boost drop. As the self learning function progresses, the overshoot will gradually be suppressed. ( Please set vehicles which lose boost due to lack of injector capacity by the normal method.)
3-2 Wastegate Type
IMPORTANT * Wastegate type vehicles do not differ in the duty setting front actuator type vehicles but the amount of boost control which is possible depends upon the type or spring rate used by the wastegate. As far as the duty setting is concerned, please choose a spring rate which allows the maximum boost pressure to be controlled by a 70% duty setting.
Set the desired boost pressure front preset A or B
Set the maximum set boost level at a 70% duty level.
Drive the vehicle and check the boost level. Adjust the wastegate spring or replace the wastegate spring so that the boost level reaches near the specified setting. While in third gear or above if the boost level stabilizes at a point near the specified boost setting the unit will commence the self learning process to complete the setting.
As for the other preset, please set the preset to the same if not a higher boost pressure setting than the one above. Please change the duty level for the new boost pressure as well.
!CAUTION ( Same for actuator and wastegate type) Although this unit has a RPM separate self learning function, vehicles maximizing their injectors by 6200 rpm will not be able to use the self learning function during that period because the unit uses the injector signal to read the engine RPM for the self learning function. In order to have more precise boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade to higher capacity injectors.*
Our company can provide the proper upgrade injectors.
BCNR33/BNR32/RNN14 550cc/min: Y20000/pc (Part number:404-NOO I)
ECR3 3/S 14/#PS 13 440cc/min:Y24000/pc (Part number:404-N002)
IMPORTANT ( Same for actuator and wastegate type)
Changes in either the preset boost pressure or duty level will reset the self learning function.
(Even if the boost pressure was changed and then returned to its previous setting)
As long as the basic requirements are fulfilled, the self learning function will automatically proceed under normal driving conditions. Please follow the steps below to speed up the self learning function process.
Drive the vehicle in as high of a gear as possible in order to get the boost pressure to match the specified boost level at the lowest possible RPM. ( the intercept RPM) ( Running the vehicle from the intercept RPM + 1000 RPM is acceptable.)
Next, run the vehicle in the mid and high RPM of a mid-range gear to match the specified boost level.
Repeating steps I and 2 will speed up the self learning function.
If the boost pressure does not rise properly, please reset the self learning function or check the set boost pressure again.
* Be sure to reset the duty level and repeat the programming sequence from the beginning when modifying either the actuator or wastegate."
So what i did was, started in 'a' mode, set boost to .8 bar, and started boost duty at 40%, in 5th gear at 3000 rpm, floored it. the boost jumped up to .9+ and would'nt stablize, so i turn it down 2%, got a similar result, turned it down another 2% and so on, till i got to 24%. At 24% it built the boost up evenly and spiked only to only .86, i kept doing the 3000 rpm floor it to trian, and it stabilized at .8, happy with this i jumped over to 'b' mode. I set the boost to .9, and duty to 50%, got a similar result as i did will 'a' at the begining, eventually narrowed it down to 44% and had a damn near stablized .9, so i upped the boost to 1 bar, and it began to spike, so instead of playing with this at 1, i went to 1.2 where i want it. I eventually got down to a boost duty of 34% with resonable stability, still spiking a little over 1.2 like 1.26, i gave up on this setting becuase of the speeds i was acheiving, but from this observation i assume boosty duty means how hard in percentage the turbo is working, and my dealer told me the turbo was upgraded, maybe the reason why the duties are so low, essential for good turbo life in racing i presume? if you know more than me on this, drop a line....please.
yelevo
Member
misfire
So the car is not breaking down under boost any more
So the car is not breaking down under boost any more
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
Re: misfire
I think i may get a manual one now, can you recommend a ebay one? and i want to keep the avcr connected, how/where would i install the manual controller(piping before the wastegate to seliniod?)?
no, it was when the controller was on, i did'nt know how to turn it off before, never had the manual. has anyone ever worked with one of these controllers before?yelevo said:
I think i may get a manual one now, can you recommend a ebay one? and i want to keep the avcr connected, how/where would i install the manual controller(piping before the wastegate to seliniod?)?
yelevo
Member
misfire
just grab a cheap bleed screw type manual boost controller. You can dis-connect the lines going to the apexi solenoid and install it there. Make sure you have a boost gauge aswell set the screw at 1.2bar. You will have to set it,drive the car and adjust it until it is at 1.2 bar.
If the car sill breaks down you can rule out the controller. My evo does exactly the same thing when there is an air leak or the plugs are fouled. Just seems to blow out the spark.
just grab a cheap bleed screw type manual boost controller. You can dis-connect the lines going to the apexi solenoid and install it there. Make sure you have a boost gauge aswell set the screw at 1.2bar. You will have to set it,drive the car and adjust it until it is at 1.2 bar.
If the car sill breaks down you can rule out the controller. My evo does exactly the same thing when there is an air leak or the plugs are fouled. Just seems to blow out the spark.
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
could i still leave the seliniod hooked up and hook up the manual boost controller before it (just turn the controller off, it still shows boost pressure and injector use)? the controller works awsome for acurate readings.
yelevo
Member
misfire
Yes. you will most likely get boost spikes with the vale but try it and see what happens with the engine problem
Yes. you will most likely get boost spikes with the vale but try it and see what happens with the engine problem
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
Re: misfire
i'm confused, i will get boost spikes with the manual controller? (becuase i want to leave the seliniod hooked up, or is it normal for manual ones?)
yelevo said:
i'm confused, i will get boost spikes with the manual controller? (becuase i want to leave the seliniod hooked up, or is it normal for manual ones?)
lancerevo92
nOOb to the EVO
*UPDATE*
So i replaced the plugs last night with NGK BEP7ES gapped at .6, ran it, ran fine. I took it out this morning to play with the controller again and TADA the problem is gone, wastegate does'nt flutter anymore, and the boost does'nt fluctuate. All it does it spool hit the boost i set, maintain, and hold. No more boost problems. Jezz all because of the damn plugs. I have more problems now though
check 'is my clutch going' thread.
Thankx guys for all the info, and knowledge. I appreciate it very much, and i'm more educated with turbo charged engines now.
So i replaced the plugs last night with NGK BEP7ES gapped at .6, ran it, ran fine. I took it out this morning to play with the controller again and TADA the problem is gone, wastegate does'nt flutter anymore, and the boost does'nt fluctuate. All it does it spool hit the boost i set, maintain, and hold. No more boost problems. Jezz all because of the damn plugs. I have more problems now though
check 'is my clutch going' thread. Thankx guys for all the info, and knowledge. I appreciate it very much, and i'm more educated with turbo charged engines now.
yelevo
Member
mis fire
Good news.
Always rule out the basics first.
Good news.
Always rule out the basics first.
CLuTZ
Diamonds are forever....
I have some advice for you
Playing with boost controllers when you dont know how they work can equal disaster, so i'd recommend getting a professional to set it up properly so you can LEAVE IT ALONE and not play with it. You'd want to get your AFR's checked so that you are not leaning the car out, and also an aftermarket fuel pump if it does not have one already.
The last thing you need, is melted pistons- or spitting a rod....
These cars are amazing, but not in-destructible!
Oh yeah- we demand more pics!!
dre
Playing with boost controllers when you dont know how they work can equal disaster, so i'd recommend getting a professional to set it up properly so you can LEAVE IT ALONE and not play with it. You'd want to get your AFR's checked so that you are not leaning the car out, and also an aftermarket fuel pump if it does not have one already.
The last thing you need, is melted pistons- or spitting a rod....
These cars are amazing, but not in-destructible!
Oh yeah- we demand more pics!!
dre
