Turbo upgrade

[rob323]

A big 16G is only just starting to get fun at 18 psi.

 

[foR.]

Yea that is true, the E3 TD05 flows up ro 400ps @ 20psi so it's not bad.

With my vr4 block/E8 piston combo how much boost could that handle (obviously given the right mods to support it)?

 

[NZVR4]

engines dont handle amounts of boost,it's a bit more complex than that,different turbos will run at different boost levels but still put out the same HP. 20 psi from a td05 big 16g is going to be different from 20psi from a 35/40 so its pointless asking if an engine will handle 20psi.

from experiance a standard vr4 engine with the right fuel supporting mods etc will handle 20psi from the hybrid 05/06.to be more general your setup will be able to handle 400-450hp reasonably safely with a good tune etc,the boost level it is acheived at is irrelavant.dont get hooked on the need to quote that your car runs 25psi, alot of people want to run high boost for the sake of saying i run this much boost,all you want is enough boost to get the power target you want with your given mods.

If you want to leave out the competing factor then using a slightly bigger turbo with less boost is more desirable than a smaller turbo with its neck being wrung to make power,the only way you will end up with the right turbo is by talking to steve murch or similar and selecting a turbo by using compressor maps,sometimes selecting a turbo cause it supports 400hp can be completely wrong for the application.not many of us have access to a range of compressor maps so it can only be educated guesses and going off of experiance.

I still reckon even for street cars the first mod should always be sorting the handling,go along to the superlap event and watch 500hp rx7's and evo's get spanked by hondas.its no fun being whooped by cars that have 2/300hp less.you should forget about upgrading the turbo untill you have found the limits of the cars handling-when you have upgrade it till you have enough skill that requires more HP

 

[VR-4Squid]

very sensible answer there NZVR4.

case in point at superlap was Ian's 6FIEND evo6, it's pretty stock engine wise (exhaust, power FC, hard piping kit, more boost) but has had much time spent setting up the suspension plus semi slicks and a driver who's had much practice on track (not THAT track, but at tracks in general)

which came 4th or 5th overall, infront of some much more powerful cars (incl a supposed 700hp Evo8 (or 9?) FORTIS.



a GT3540 isn't necessarily completely wrong for a circuit car - Dirks Evo 2 did very well at superlap and he's just won the Pukekohe Car Club bent sprint series (3 x 2nd places and 1 x 1st) in his first year competing.

Having said that, the car has been developed within an inch of it's life, and there are many very special tricks and touches in that car.


My advice: keep the big 16G, get some decent brakes (brembo's and endless or similar pads), semi slicks (Toyo R888's), good quality coil overs, and have the car corner weighted.
Then get out and practice (an infra red heat gun to take tire temps is a massive help too).

 

[foR.]

engines dont handle amounts of boost,it's a bit more complex than that,different turbos will run at different boost levels but still put out the same HP. 20 psi from a td05 big 16g is going to be different from 20psi from a 35/40 so its pointless asking if an engine will handle 20psi.

from experiance a standard vr4 engine with the right fuel supporting mods etc will handle 20psi from the hybrid 05/06.to be more general your setup will be able to handle 400-450hp reasonably safely with a good tune etc,the boost level it is acheived at is irrelavant.dont get hooked on the need to quote that your car runs 25psi, alot of people want to run high boost for the sake of saying i run this much boost,all you want is enough boost to get the power target you want with your given mods.

If you want to leave out the competing factor then using a slightly bigger turbo with less boost is more desirable than a smaller turbo with its neck being wrung to make power,the only way you will end up with the right turbo is by talking to steve murch or similar and selecting a turbo by using compressor maps,sometimes selecting a turbo cause it supports 400hp can be completely wrong for the application.not many of us have access to a range of compressor maps so it can only be educated guesses and going off of experiance.

I still reckon even for street cars the first mod should always be sorting the handling,go along to the superlap event and watch 500hp rx7's and evo's get spanked by hondas.its no fun being whooped by cars that have 2/300hp less.you should forget about upgrading the turbo untill you have found the limits of the cars handling-when you have upgrade it till you have enough skill that requires more HP

Cheers for the reply

I relise that 20 from one turbo is different from the next, but a pressure mesurement is still the same. 20 psi in a block is still 20 psi there has to be a max before the block pops.

I don't have a psi penis haha I don't care how much I run I'm just using an example of 18 psi thats all

The topic is to cover the engine not the rest of the car, I just want to know how to get the best of the block I have listed (maybe people have gone down my path? maybe not) just after that info. As for the rest of the car/driver etc that will be sorted in time.

 

[foR.]

very sensible answer there NZVR4.

case in point at superlap was Ian's 6FIEND evo6, it's pretty stock engine wise (exhaust, power FC, hard piping kit, more boost) but has had much time spent setting up the suspension plus semi slicks and a driver who's had much practice on track (not THAT track, but at tracks in general)

which came 4th or 5th overall, infront of some much more powerful cars (incl a supposed 700hp Evo8 (or 9?) FORTIS.



a GT3540 isn't necessarily completely wrong for a circuit car - Dirks Evo 2 did very well at superlap and he's just won the Pukekohe Car Club bent sprint series (3 x 2nd places and 1 x 1st) in his first year competing.

Having said that, the car has been developed within an inch of it's life, and there are many very special tricks and touches in that car.


My advice: keep the big 16G, get some decent brakes (brembo's and endless or similar pads), semi slicks (Toyo R888's), good quality coil overs, and have the car corner weighted.
Then get out and practice (an infra red heat gun to take tire temps is a massive help too).

I'll be keeping the TDO5 as I need the car running first and will see how that goes, I'm only asking for information as I said above if anyone has done this before maybe share their sucess and advice?

I think MR4G63 is a good example of small mods with great results

I'm in touch with Steve Murch through mmc

 

[TMAK]

turbo

doommachine: off topic but reverse setup will soon be on my car.. (if it fits)

FoR. : Evo 3 big 16g is my vote.

 

[NZVR4]

20 psi in a block isnt as simple as that,20 psi from one turbo compared to another could be pumping an extra 150hp through the engine,so psi is not what you want to base a build on,HP levels is a better way to start working out what will handle what.your right 20psi is a pressure but thats what the compressor will be feeding into the intake,the block(rods,crank etc) will be handling HP not psi so to speak

 

[rob323]

You will normally find the limits of the tune and fuel system before you find the limits of the block. Pistons and head gasket will be the first things to go, way before the rods, crank or the block.

 

[GVR40]

You will normally find the limits of the tune and fuel system before you find the limits of the block. Pistons and head gasket will be the first things to go, way before the rods, crank or the block.

+1 to that,

i have shattered a piston with a standard (14b) turbo, so better off spendin the money on more important things, (fuel, handling etc)

 

[doommachine]

Frontn : Facing the timing cover or installed backwards, ie "normal" orientation?

 

[TMAK]

Frontn : Facing the timing cover or installed backwards, ie "normal" orientation?

still hoping to face the timing cover if clearance issue surpass.. which i believe will once i make a manifold.
i'll update my member's ride thread soon.

 

[foR.]

Ok,

It's been some time and progress is slow but progress is good

The car stands like this:

Vr4 block, rods, crank
E8 pistons
ARP bolts everywhere
ACL bearings

Everything blasted tested and prepped etc etc..

The car will also contain:
2.5" cooler piping
6-8 cooler, possibly aftermarket item
Chipped ECU (You all probably know Razza)
3" exhaust


Now, I'm still looking at turbo options.. I have come across the opossed spinning TD05 HR and the compressor wheels from GT pumps..

[SIZE=-2]TD05HR 16G6 wheel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Inducer = 48.3mm[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Exducer = 68mm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]TD05HR 16G6 wheel[/SIZE]

$126.50

[SIZE=-2]TD05HR 18G wheel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Inducer = 50.4mm[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Exducer = 68mm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]TD05HR 18G wheel[/SIZE]

$199.00

[SIZE=-2]Note: we are one of the few companies in the world offering this 18G wheel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]TD05HR 20G wheel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]EVO4-EVO8[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Inducer = 52.6mm[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-2]Exducer = 68mm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]TD05HR 20G wheel[/SIZE]

$199.00
[SIZE=-2]Note: we are one of the few companies in the world offering this 20G wheel[/SIZE]



The TD05 HR is only $200 which is a nice price for a good condition turbo, this will also be overhauled by Steve Murch.

I'm after something punchy for circuit, street circuit/targa events.

Full boost around 3.5-4k

How does the above sound?

Manifold will be made to suit.

foR

 

[milkandoj]

Ive just put a turbo on mine fitted with a simular size to a 20G wheel, slightly bigger.
Come on real nice spool between 2.5- 3.5 and its on just after 3.5. Its only on 14psi at the moment but goes nice and id expect higher boost by 4 for sure.

Wouldnt go any bigger for street car but it real nice upgrade from the stock 14b

 

[foR.]

Car will be driven on street yes, but with all intensions for track.

What turbo did you get exactly and other mods to your "vr4" I'm guessing?

 

[BMGTZ]

Ive just put a turbo on mine fitted with a simular size to a 20G wheel, slightly bigger.
Come on real nice spool between 2.5- 3.5 and its on just after 3.5. Its only on 14psi at the moment but goes nice and id expect higher boost by 4 for sure.

Wouldnt go any bigger for street car but it real nice upgrade from the stock 14b





and it was cheap too......

 

[foR.]

What was it..

 

[milkandoj]

[quote=BMGTZ;129899]Ive just put a turbo on mine fitted with a simular size to a 20G wheel, slightly bigger.[/quote]

Come on real nice spool between 2.5- 3.5 and its on just after 3.5. Its only on 14psi at the moment but goes nice and id expect higher boost by 4 for sure.

Wouldnt go any bigger for street car but it real nice upgrade from the stock 14b






and it was cheap too......

Yeah thanks brian, now exams are over ill have to come over for a beer and show you how the cars going, just got some nice rims for it today to. Now it doesn look lik a granny mobile

In answer to what my cars got. Basically quite a clean stock'ish setup at the moment haha.
The turbo is a modded evo1 small 16g with what we believe is a garret wheel but a touch bigger then 20g when i measured it up. (its not one of the evo 4+ wheels like you showed)
Basicly just engine wise; 3" exhaust, evo 3 ported exhaust manifold and dump, and the turbo.
A also replaced the exhaust side of the turbo with a non cracked one and spend about 8 hours solid porting it.
Holds a stable 10-11psi no creep, sits stable on 14 now. There alot to said for porting! Well worth the effort.

She’s only on as much boost as my standard ecu will take at the moment before boost cut. I got other stuff to go in to support it. chipped ecu ect ect ect
Why put the bigger turbo on, well the deal came up and i wanted to see how it'd go and it ended up quite nice. (thanks brian)

I know they only wake up after 18psi.

Reason i responded was to say, i was all worried about going much bigger, lag an boost threshold, but really its not worth winging about and i love it. but i would definitely not go any bigger for the street and where i can see the car heading.
20g size turbo’s rock. Even on 14psi the top end is much much better than the 14b.

There is a differend feel as you'd expect compared to the puny 14b but compare the exducer and inducer sizes, its a gradual pull as it come on then, an good mid range punch and top end. rather than a hit then nothing from 5K onwards like the 14b. Anyway its more exciting as it builds quickly rather than a sudden hit of the 14b, then tapering off. Hoever if you want somehitng razor sharp other guys love the 14b to. Im not a big turbo junkie by the way.

I still wanted something i could get on boost out of corners and it does that.
There has been some great discussion already on what the motor can handle, i just thought i could add the the "feel" of a 20g size turbo.
Everyones got their opinion, and that mine. I havent driven a car with a 16g however but the jump form 14b to 20g size isnt bad at all.
And i hear steve mirch is THE MAN. I'd listen to him.
Even though its on low boost and no where near its potential im not winging. More modds to come....

 

[VR-4Squid]

Car will be driven on street yes, but with all intensions for track.

Like Roger said on mmc, on a street car your at full throttle maybe 5% of the time, so you want a small exhaust housing to give good response and a low boost threshold.
On the track you spend much more time at full throttle, and very little at low revs, so you can (and need to) use a larger exhaust housing to reduce the pressure differential across the head.

If the car is mostly street driven with the occasional trackday - go with the stock exhaust housing.
If the car is going to be mostly used on the track, and only occasionally on the road - go with a bigger exhaust housing.

In short, you have to choose which is more important to you. If you try and make it good for everything, youi'll end up with a car thats (as me nan used to say) "Neither owt nor summat"

 

[foR.]

Like Roger said on mmc, on a street car your at full throttle maybe 5% of the time, so you want a small exhaust housing to give good response and a low boost threshold.
On the track you spend much more time at full throttle, and very little at low revs, so you can (and need to) use a larger exhaust housing to reduce the pressure differential across the head.

If the car is mostly street driven with the occasional trackday - go with the stock exhaust housing.
If the car is going to be mostly used on the track, and only occasionally on the road - go with a bigger exhaust housing.

In short, you have to choose which is more important to you. If you try and make it good for everything, youi'll end up with a car thats (as me nan used to say) "Neither owt nor summat"

Haha cheers Squid, your nan is wise

I'd like to say it will be on the track more than street but in saying that much I'd rather go for more track spec anyway in the hope to be more out on the track

I think I will go with the TD05 HR 16g with the bigger exhaust wheel and see how it performs when the car is running, maybe change some things around eg comp wheel to a 20g. But the car running, thats a while off yet

Jacob


EDIT:

God MMC's hosting is SHIT haha.. the page rarely loads.. I have a PM waiting and I can't even check it..

Who controls the hosing these days, I have a web server and I'll do it for free!!!